Thanks to the WSJ article there is so much emphasis on being a french mom this week. My FIL clipped the article and handed it to me. My reply: Why would I want to raise my son to end up as a high brow, petulant and condescending french adult. Have you people been to France? I was born there and lived there as an adult as well. I would rather raise a brash, but open minded and kind, American, thank you.
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02.14.12, 05:05 AM
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^^Oh, and the reason French children are not seen screaming in restaurants is because they are not taken until they are old enough to behave. You never see toddlers out. Ever. I would rather expose my son to the world and live my life, including restaurants and face a tantrum now and then. Keeping a child in isolation is not the answer either.
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02.14.12, 05:07 AM
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Are you French or American?
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02.14.12, 05:11 AM
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neither, Italian.
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02.14.12, 05:12 AM
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but born in France, raised lived there and elsewhere and finally raised in USA both in the West and a decade in NY.
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02.14.12, 05:13 AM
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Where do you prefer to live?
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02.14.12, 05:24 AM
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I loved Paris a single girl in her 20's, and NYC has been amazing to me too. But, I would probably like to move out west at some point as DS gets older. Maybe Colorado or Arizona.
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02.14.12, 05:27 AM
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*as a single girl
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02.14.12, 05:28 AM
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sounds good.
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02.14.12, 05:29 AM
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right?
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02.14.12, 05:30 AM
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yes.
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02.14.12, 05:31 AM
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THIS. I spend a month in Paris eating in restaurants , fancy and not so much. Most of them have no high chairs. The only toddlers were mine.
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02.14.12, 05:15 AM
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exactly. Just because you don't see the children misbehave does not mean they don't misbehave.
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02.14.12, 05:20 AM
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They were giving me dirty looks when I rode subway with my kid in a stroller. I couldn't see any children except when I went to the playground. It was as if they don't like children.
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02.14.12, 05:26 AM
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I rode a double stroller with a 1 y.o and a 4 y.o. It was the best vacation of my life. Oh but the looks I got with my stroller and my big boy sleeping on it!!! So amusing, when you are sitting on a cafe eating creeps au chocolait
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02.14.12, 05:44 AM
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Creps of course
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02.14.12, 05:47 AM
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Do you mean crepes?
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02.14.12, 05:54 AM
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Yes that's it. Lol
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02.14.12, 11:53 AM
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The Paris subway is generally even more crowded than the NY - of course they were giving you dirty looks if you had your kid in a stroller. Fold the stroller, hold the kid, just like you're supposed to here!
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02.14.12, 05:55 AM
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My kid was sleeping in the stroller. No one gave me dirty look when I rode subway with my kid in the stroller in NY.
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02.14.12, 06:00 AM
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I've given (and seen others give) plenty of dirty looks to parents with open strollers in NY on crowded trains. You're not supposed to use strollers for a reason.
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02.14.12, 06:04 AM
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I never had the same kind of problems in NY. I feel lucky that I've never crossed the path with you.
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02.14.12, 06:05 AM
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np - you are supposed to fold your stroller!
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02.14.12, 06:07 AM
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Even if it means waking a child? I'm glad I don't live in NYC!
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02.14.12, 06:10 AM
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I never had a problem. On the contrary, people were trying to give me their seats.
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02.14.12, 06:13 AM
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this. Dont let one poster bias you against NYC subway riders.
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02.14.12, 06:16 AM
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Yes, the rest of us are kind, compassionate, friendly, patient, and helpful. You know. A typical NYer..
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02.14.12, 06:18 AM
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You're lucky. I've been on the subway dozens of times with a toddler and heavily pregnant and never been offered a seat. Oh, and I fold my stroller (or leave it at home)
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02.14.12, 06:23 AM
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Sometimes it's not possible to fold a stroller. Imagine folding a phil&teds double stroller? Take off the second seat, hold the infant (really? How?) then fold the stroller. Even folded it's as wide as before.
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02.14.12, 06:37 AM
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Then don't travel on the subway with a P&T's double stroller. It's simple.
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02.14.12, 06:42 AM
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Sometimes there's no other option. If OR travels, the Maclaren is incredibly useless. It is almost impossible to push 2 heavy kids with it. You are a smug person.
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02.14.12, 06:49 AM
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Do you not understand that some people need a double stroller for transporting their children, need to take the subway to get where they are going, and have as much right to use it as you do?
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02.14.12, 06:52 AM
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They expect you to fold the stroller and hold the child's hand on a crowded-ass subway platform. Yes, of course I'll endanger my child to accommodate you!
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02.14.12, 08:38 AM
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This!
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02.15.12, 05:39 PM
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No, you're not. That is ridiculous. I get irritated when I see somebody with a bike on the subway at rush hour, but I realize it's their right to be there.
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02.14.12, 08:37 AM
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I can't imagine giving a mother dirty looks for not folding up her stroller if her kid were sleeping in it. Jesus! Do you hate kids?
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02.14.12, 06:10 AM
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np - a sleeping kid might be ok if it isn't rush hour, but most of the time the kids aren't sleeping and the massive strollers take over the subway cars.
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02.14.12, 06:13 AM
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I don't care if it is rush hour. Waking a baby? You have to be nuts.
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02.14.12, 06:16 AM
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Then don't get on the subway with a baby in a stroller.
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02.14.12, 06:22 AM
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This is absolutely ridiculous. And NOT the attitude of most. Obviously even people with babies need to use the subway sometimes. Maybe not in your world. But in the real one.
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02.14.12, 06:49 AM
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I commute with my kid on the subway nearly every day. If I have to take a stroller, I fold it, but usually use a carrier
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02.14.12, 06:51 AM
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Okay. What does that have to do with my point? If your baby is sleeping in the stroller, you should not have to choose between waking them up or skipping the subway. That's great that it always works out for you. But some people get on the subway at different times of the day than you do, and have children with different sleep schedules. If it happens that a child falls asleep in their stroller it is completely reasonable to take them on the subway in the stroller.
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02.14.12, 06:54 AM
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NP: NYers may not give you dirty looks but you're still imposing on them bec a nuisance in rush hour. The French were merely more obvious.
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02.14.12, 06:26 AM
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In both cases, it was not during the rush hour. There was enough room for everyone.
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02.14.12, 06:30 AM
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I don't get why rush hour or even space matters. If you have a baby sleeping in a stroller, it's far more reasonable for one less person to be able to fit in the subway because of your stroller, than for you to wake a sleeping baby and make everyone deal with the crying.
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02.14.12, 06:51 AM
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+1
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02.15.12, 05:40 PM
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u rock!
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02.14.12, 05:32 AM
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Kind of reminds me of how I was raised in the 70s. My parents often say that kids were better behaved, but the truth was that you just didn't take them anywhere. Also, you could leave a seven-year-old in the car while you ran an errand without being arrested.
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02.14.12, 08:36 AM
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They are also routinely spanked. -np
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02.15.12, 02:45 PM
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I totally agree. The French may be adorable as kids but are unbearable adults. Who would want that for their kids? Fwiw, I love France and the French language but many French adults are too rigid, rude and insecure and also seem very unhappy. I think it's the rigid parenting that creates these insecure and rude adults. Their personal insecurity comes across as arrogance, btw.
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02.14.12, 05:11 AM
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They complain and criticize about everything.
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02.14.12, 05:13 AM
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yes but they throw a good protest
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02.14.12, 05:23 AM
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All the time. They like to take turns, today is subway strike, tomorrow is the bus, and then post office, trains... Never ending strikes!
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02.14.12, 05:28 AM
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Yes, but no strike ever lasts more than a day. And the manifestations are so colorful.
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02.14.12, 11:13 AM
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I'm sick of all these "you're doing it wrong" parenting articles.
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02.14.12, 05:29 AM
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hear, hear!
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02.14.12, 05:30 AM
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I may very well be doing it wrong, but at least I'm doing it wrong in my own unique way.
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02.14.12, 05:32 AM
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what is unique about your way?
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02.14.12, 05:50 AM
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Nothing really, save for that it's me doing it.
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02.14.12, 07:54 AM
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I agree. It's as if there are no well behaving children. My children and most of the kids in their school behave amazingly well.
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02.14.12, 05:33 AM
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You do realize that it just means that they behave well by your standards, right?
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02.14.12, 05:44 AM
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I lived in France, OK?
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02.14.12, 05:51 AM
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That makes you an authority?
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02.14.12, 05:57 AM
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I know both sides, unlike you.
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02.14.12, 06:01 AM
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I went to school in Russia, Italy, US, and Germany. You are not "open minded
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02.14.12, 06:03 AM
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I went to schools in 3 different continents and speak 3 languages fluently. I don't make judgement calls on people.
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02.14.12, 06:08 AM
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You said "unlike you" that sounds pretty judgmental. If you truly experienced schools in 3 different continents, I do not see how you can possibly have this opinion.
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02.14.12, 06:12 AM
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But she does know both sides directly. Unlike you, who has not lived in France.
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02.14.12, 06:13 AM
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The article could have been written about many other European countries, there is nothing so particularly French in what is being described in it.
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02.14.12, 06:16 AM
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Doesn't change the fact that she has experienced directly what we are discussing and you have not.
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02.14.12, 06:19 AM
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I responded to her statement in regard to judging behavior by personal standards. Given that I have experienced many other cultures, I too have some experience in the matter. Additionally, given how much OP misunderstood the article I question her experience.
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02.14.12, 06:22 AM
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But at the end of the day she would more accurately be able to claim knowing both sides than you. As we are discussing France.
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02.14.12, 06:59 AM
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NP. The article could have been written about many other places in the UNITED STATES. What was described was hardly unique to Europe. People on this thread are making a very good point -- we see more children misbehaving now in public because instead of keeping kids at home until they're 5 we take babies and toddlers everywhere with us. Yes that's something new and yes that's not always appropriate and yes parents should be better judges of which restaurants to go to with a spazzy toddler. But to take the tack of culture vs culture with this issue is idiotic.
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02.14.12, 07:55 AM
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If you think these facts make or break someones open mindedness, you are quite close minded.
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02.14.12, 06:11 AM
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What exactly was closed minded about my statement? Pointing out that OR is only judging "good behavior" by her personal standards?
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02.14.12, 06:14 AM
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What? Your opinion is based on scientific statistics of millions of children?!
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02.14.12, 06:19 AM
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It is close minded to think that telling us how much you've traveled says something about your open mindedness.
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02.14.12, 06:19 AM
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Now you're the authority in regard to open/closed mindedness, right?
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02.14.12, 06:28 AM
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No. I was simply commenting on the irony of her commenting on someones open mindedness based on such close minded criteria.
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02.14.12, 06:55 AM
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As opposed to OP? I don't believe I made any statements about myself or my schooling/travel experiences until OP had said: " I know both sides, unlike you"
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02.14.12, 06:28 AM
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That statement was not made by OP. I made that statement.
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02.14.12, 06:31 AM
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You did? Good for You!
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02.14.12, 06:32 AM
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Do you realize what you are?
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02.14.12, 06:38 AM
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? No.
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02.14.12, 06:57 AM
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But your response suggested there is a connection between where you've lived and open mindedness. You brought that topic up, not her.
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02.14.12, 06:57 AM
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But you didn't live in France. Making the responder you are fighting with a much more relevant person to speak on this subject. Idiot.
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02.14.12, 06:12 AM
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Hello "open minded" OP.
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02.14.12, 06:18 AM
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No, I'm someone new that doesn't like you.
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02.14.12, 06:20 AM
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I still think you are OP. But in any case, I am flattered by how easily I could get a rise out of you.
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02.14.12, 06:31 AM
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op: it was not me, but I think that you two are both needlessly debating your own authority on the subject. The whole point is that generalization based on anecdotes are idiotic, no matter how vast or narrow your experience. Short of actual studies, its just another anecdote. But carry on one upping each other if thats what you like.
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02.14.12, 06:41 AM
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I'm not suggesting I have any authority on the subject. Just debating hers.
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02.14.12, 06:59 AM
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Why would this be flattering?
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02.14.12, 07:00 AM
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You are doing a great job! How is that?
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02.14.12, 05:43 AM
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Such hysteria mongering! I am totally crunchy (babywear/cosleep/BF), but I used to hate those articles that used to go around , about African tribes and how they wear their babies and breastfeed etc , as if they are some utopian society . They also circumsize with a rock and send their 12 year olds in the lion fields or whatever....I mean its FINE to do what is culturally right, and its fine to borrow good ideas, but can we stop with the "everyone else does it better" crap. Likewise with the French. They're fine! We're fine! sheesh
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02.14.12, 05:46 AM
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LOL. ITA
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02.14.12, 07:52 AM
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Are you serious? My husband's entire family is French, and they are some of the most wonderful, warm, caring and kind people I know. There are stereotypes everywhere. I'm just tired of these type of articles pitting one type of parent/person against another.
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02.14.12, 05:33 AM
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Good for you, but not all French are like that.
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02.14.12, 05:35 AM
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No, but in my experience not all French are "high brow, petulant and condescending". In fact, I know a lot of Americans that fit that description too.
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02.14.12, 05:36 AM
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You mean among New Yorkers?
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02.14.12, 05:38 AM
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Not only NYers but there are a lot here, yes.
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02.14.12, 05:44 AM
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A lot of condescending Americans? I'm confused.
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02.14.12, 05:53 AM
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Yes, there are plenty of condescending Americans, just like there are condescending people from every country on the planet (ok, maybe not every, but most Western and highly-developed Eastern countries)
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02.14.12, 05:56 AM
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Americans are not condescending like French. French always feel superior to other cultures and consider Americans as vulgar.
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02.14.12, 06:04 AM
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That sounds pretty condescending to me.
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02.14.12, 06:05 AM
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You're just sounding like an ignorant and biased American. And a wee bit condescending.
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02.14.12, 06:06 AM
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I was schooled in France.
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02.14.12, 06:10 AM
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I guess you would say that that explains it.
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02.14.12, 06:17 AM
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??
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02.14.12, 06:21 AM
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Biased much?
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02.14.12, 06:10 AM
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Against whom?
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02.14.12, 06:17 AM
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?? Yeah well, if you have to ask ....
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02.14.12, 06:21 AM
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Are you OK?!
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02.14.12, 06:23 AM
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Making statements about the general behavior of certain groups is only bias if you treat individuals from the group like they are behaving this way before they have actually done so.
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02.14.12, 07:03 AM
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NP. I agree. Even our dear friends from France who are lovely people can't help but to constantly assess another person's sophistication in everything that person says or does. It's cultural. And we know this about France, right? Doesn't mean we hate them. Also it's much easier to make a generalization about a small country that's mostly homogeneous and the size of one or two states in the USA; I don't see that as too outrageous.
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02.14.12, 09:11 AM
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Stereotypes can be bad. But obviously there is a difference in overall parenting philosophy when you compare countries. You having some anecdotal experience to the contrary does not negate the general trends in parenting from one country to another.
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02.14.12, 06:16 AM
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Did you even read the article? Are your parents French?
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02.14.12, 05:39 AM
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The article may be talking about France but it can generally be applied to many other cultures. There is nothing particular to France in that Article. I have read so many comments on here about this article and very few rally understood, not that it is complicated.
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02.14.12, 05:41 AM
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ITA. Just French is seen as "Fashionable" by ignorant Americans, which is why the book will sell.
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02.14.12, 05:52 AM
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But French are fascinated by America. They watch American shows like "Friends" and want to come to NY to live like the show characters.
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02.14.12, 05:55 AM
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Do you actually know any French people?
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02.14.12, 05:57 AM
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J'ai vecue en France pendant plusiers annees. Oui, j'ai garder contacts avec mes amis, ca va?
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02.14.12, 06:12 AM
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And your French friends are still watching Friends and wanting to live like them?
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02.14.12, 06:16 AM
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They came to NY and lived here for 2 years.
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02.14.12, 06:22 AM
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NP. This is a bit painful. "J'ai garder"? Schoolbook French with grammatical errors does not make you an expert.
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02.14.12, 06:55 AM
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Ok, J'ai gardee, ca va? Emmerdeuse...
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02.14.12, 08:56 AM
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Does this convince you that it's not "schoolbook French", detective? I have some more if you want.
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02.14.12, 09:09 AM
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No, it does not. It's still not right. "J'ai gardé" (one "e") is correct.
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02.14.12, 11:37 AM
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NP: did you really live in France? J'ai vecue? If you know french culture as well as you know the language, you clearly aren't an expert either
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02.14.12, 11:28 AM
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Oh and by the way it is j'ai garde (and not j'ai garder, or j'ai garde)
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02.14.12, 11:29 AM
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French mom here, it's actually "je suis restée en contact avec mes amis". J'ai gardé is a direct translation from English but is not correct French.
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02.14.12, 12:22 PM
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She probably used google transalate - LOL
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02.14.12, 12:51 PM
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Vraiment, tu m'emmerdes. Va te fais chier, salope!
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02.14.12, 01:50 PM
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I am not French, but studied there a while back. I don't speak or write in French these days. Is your English perfect all the time?
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02.14.12, 01:47 PM
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No it's not, and I am perfectly fine with people correcting it. I was just giving the correct sentence since there was a whole subthread devoted to the correct French grammar. I really don't care whether you make a few mistakes in French. I do however find your attitude and stereotyping of French people particularly nasty and not at all "open-minded and kind." It also shows how little you know about French people, who by the way take their kids out to restaurants, museums, etc.
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02.14.12, 01:55 PM
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You're totally confused. You're mixing up what other people posted with what I said. I didn't talk about French children at all here.
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02.14.12, 02:11 PM
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Yes, and everybody else wants to come to Paris and live like Amelie.
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02.14.12, 06:11 AM
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Who's Amelie? You see, that's the difference.
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02.14.12, 06:26 AM
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LOL! You're kidding, right?
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02.15.12, 08:44 AM
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Wasn't the article in response to a book that is coming out (or just came out)? Similiar to the French Women Don't Get Fat book. I don't mind b/c I find cross-cultural analysis to be interesting. Children are raised differently in diff. parts of the world. Surprisingly, my ds reported to me that the children he met in Israel recently are allowed (encouraged) to walk around the city with friends as earlier as 8 years old. Teens regularly get together and hang out at favorite shops & cafes. I rarely see this in NYC. I used to hang out with my friends in GV but now it seems between crime and vandalism it's become less likely to see this...
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02.14.12, 05:55 AM
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First reasonable response on here. There are positive and interesting aspects to be learned from other cultures. I don't understand this hatred.
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02.14.12, 06:01 AM
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this is true. Israeli mom here. Even at 4/5 years old I was asked regularly to go fetch my then 7/8 year old brother from the pizzeria down the block or to get milk from the corner shop next to our building. Kids are given a lot of freedom there. Though, it has changed some.
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02.14.12, 06:12 AM
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You obviously weren't living in the Paris I know. Spent a year living with a aunt, uncle and their 3 young children about a decade ago. French kids were very much brought out into the world as infants, and some of them were nightmares and some weren't. I love how easily riled parents are to jump at the smallest provocation.
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02.14.12, 05:55 AM
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ITA
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02.14.12, 05:57 AM
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Exactly! French mom here. Both the article and this thread are full of crazy stereotypes. French parents do take their kids to restaurants, some behave and some don't. If you want to generalize, there is a difference in parenting philosophy: in France it is assumed that children have to adapt to their parents' lives not the other way around.
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02.14.12, 12:27 PM
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You are on the money!! Kids are kept in hiding until they are old enough to behave!!!! Thank you for expressing how I've been feeling about all this hoopla. Americans love to think the French always have it right, even teaching them the language which is pretty much totally useless except for to show as a status symbol. Americans may not have everything right, but many things are on the money imo.
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02.14.12, 06:11 AM
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um... French is actually a very useful language.
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02.14.12, 06:14 AM
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I'm fluent, have been living in NYC for 6 years and never have I had to use it.
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02.14.12, 06:20 AM
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Are you for real? You may not have used it in NYC, but if you ever travel you'd find it quite useful. That would involve leaving NYC though, which I know is a wildly terrifying idea.
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02.14.12, 06:22 AM
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or (about French being useful) - French is a very useful language globally. Just because you haven't used it living in NYC it doesn't mean a thing. I haven't used my Spanish or French much in NY, but use them both a lot whenever I travel.
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02.14.12, 06:25 AM
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If leaving NYC is terrifying I must be extremely courageous for traveling as much as I do (yes even to Europe and Asia gasp!). French is useless in America. My dcs are learning Spanish because although I am fluent in 4 languages, Spanish is the one I wish I had.
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02.14.12, 06:25 AM
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If your children ever want to work in diplomacy they will be sorry they didn't learn French. It can be incredibly useful.
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02.14.12, 06:29 AM
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They will have the Latin of Spanish as a base to learn French if they wish. In the meantime, in the States, Spanish is what they are most likely to be immersed in.
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02.14.12, 06:36 AM
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That doesn't make French a totally useless language.
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02.14.12, 06:37 AM
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NP: You said French is totally useless period. It isn't by a long shot. Knowing any language other than English is useful. Sounds like you're being contrary for the sake of it.
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02.14.12, 06:33 AM
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You just said it was a useless language. Now you're saying it's useless only in America. Drastically different things.
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02.14.12, 07:02 AM
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I am from latinamerica totally useless here. Totally useless in Africa and in china and Japan and Australia ... Should I continue? It is pretty much useless . Face it
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02.14.12, 01:10 PM
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op: No doubt the American way has room for improvement, if you can say we have "a way." but - why tout the french? They are far from being my standard bearers. That's all I am saying.
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02.14.12, 06:15 AM
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All ways have room for improvement of course.
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02.14.12, 06:22 AM
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It's interesting that you all feel so comfortable stereotyping French adults while harping about how your children are being unfairly characterized as poorly behaved. In my experience, most NYC kids are spoiled brats with overindulgent pushovers for parents. People admit to this (euphemistically) in certain contexts, given all the references to children who are "brash," "spirited," "strong willed," etc. But call a spade a spade and suddenly everyone is up in arms.
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02.14.12, 06:50 AM
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Objectivity is out the window when discussing Junior.
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02.14.12, 06:53 AM
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I guess your experience doesn't involve contact with any working class New Yorkers? Or any immigrants?
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02.14.12, 07:01 AM
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Eh- the book generalizes like crazy. My brother and sister in law live in southern france. She is French. She didn't let her 6 week old baby cry at night, she gives her kids snacks, they are pretty much the same as other 1 and 3 year olds I know.....she's not rude but sweet! But I don't think the French take kids to restaurants as much- most of the restaurants in her town don't have highchairs.
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02.14.12, 07:55 AM
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French people are generally smelly and smoke too much. The women don't shave their pits. The men are cowards and pseudo-intellectuals.
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02.14.12, 10:32 AM
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Yep and American women all have body issues, either fat or anorexic. They have no sense of the geography/history of other nations
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02.14.12, 11:32 AM
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If you actually read the book you'd realize that it is full of anecdotes and fluff.
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02.14.12, 10:56 AM
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I had a woman in her 60s at the Met tell me I had to read that book when she saw me with my 2 yo (who was behaving fine). It must be an idea that appeals to older people. "Children should be seen and not heard," only repackaged for Europhiles!
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02.14.12, 02:16 PM
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