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  • [-]Why is our society still obsessed with marrying before starting a family? What is wrong with a fully committed couple, living together and having a family?

    82 replies [ Reply | Watch | Options ]
    09.22.09, 10:55 AM [ Flag ]
    • I don't think there's much wrong with it at all & don't see a big backlash at all. I know a bunch of people who have kids & aren't married (including some gay couples, who would love the choice btw).

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      09.22.09, 11:01 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • I guess I was assuming there was still a bit of backlash due to all the posts today about women in their 30's childless because they couldn't get married...

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        09.22.09, 11:03 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • It's because we're still very religious by and large. When you look at the Scandinavian societies (most of which have very high levels of agnosticism/atheism) many people aren't getting married at all anymore and the couples are still treated as being seriously committed to each other. If American society ever moves away from being so religious, the same will probably happen here.

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      09.22.09, 11:06 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • which countries make up the scandinavian societies? Norway, switzerland, etc??

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        09.22.09, 11:08 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavia Traditionally it's only Norway, Sweden, and Denmark. It think that Finland should definitely be included these days as it's developed way more in that direction in the last hundred years and has close political ties to the 'true' Nordic countries. Iceland and Greenland (as a territory of Denmark's) should also be included. Switzerland is definitely not part of the Scandinavian pastiche, even though the people are blonde haired and blue eyed. It's really its own thing, but I think it also has low marriage rates and fairly equitable treatment of non-married couples. :]

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          09.22.09, 11:16 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
          • Switzerland does not actually have blond hair blue eyed people. i used to think that and someone swiss set me straight!

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            09.22.09, 11:37 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
          • No, the Scandinavian countries are Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Iceland, and Finland (though technically they are neither linguistically nor ethnically Scandinavian)

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            09.22.09, 05:22 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • if america were more religious it would be a better place. americans are just more judgemental.

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        09.22.09, 11:40 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • I agree with this. My family is from Finland and my mom and I were just talking about how so many people over there just aren't getting married anymore but are still having families.

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        09.22.09, 02:11 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • a fully committed couple who are living together are essentially married.

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      09.22.09, 11:07 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • It makes it a lot easier to walk out if the going gets tough, and it does sometimes if you are not married. You have a lot more rights as a spouse than you do as a girlfriend and you won't have to go through life explaining to others (including your children) what your situation is. What's wrong with someone standing up in front of your friends and family and the government and saying that they love you are committed to you and only you and promise to live by a code of rules that you two have agreed upon. If you can't do that, then you really should re-think starting a family together. Having kids is hard, having two parents who are committed to each other makes it much easier.

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      09.22.09, 11:07 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • I totally forgot about the legal issues. Yea, in some other societies where the marriage rates are going down it's also possible to have either full rights (hospital visitation, joint tax filing, etc.) or pretty close to full as a non-married couple.

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        09.22.09, 11:09 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • Not to get off topic but I really felt horrible by how poor to downright vicious partners (same sex or opposite sex) where treated by insurance companies, pension plans, their partners' families of 9-11 victims. Ugh. But we're a society based on "the good book". Too bad some people forget all those other parts of the Bible like do unto others.....

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          09.22.09, 11:19 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • What's wrong is that we shouldn't HAVE to stand up in front of the government to legitimize our relationships. If two people are committed to each other and to their children, it's no one's business but their own and the people with whom they choose to share it. The State of New York has no business in our homes beyond ensuring our children are safe and well cared for.

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        09.22.09, 01:05 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • But what's the difference then between being a "fully committed couple" and getting married? Why the resistance? If for nothing else, I'd say for your DC's sake when they start asking. And because calling the 41-year-old parent of your children your "girlfriend" or "boyfriend" or "partner" sounds kinda stupid.

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      09.22.09, 11:07 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • Yeah, we need a good word for it. "Significant other" is cumbersome and "partner" sounds like same sex couples.

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        09.22.09, 11:29 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • so you want me to get married because you haven't come up with the right label for us??? no thanks.

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        09.22.09, 11:43 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • I'm just genuinely curious WHY you wouldn't get married to someone to whom you've already committed your life to in every possible way--finances, housing, children, etc. It's not the lifestyle that's different, it's just the refusing to make it "official." And do you seriously refer to this person as your "boyfriend" like you're 17?

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          09.22.09, 12:26 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
          • i don't feel it's necessary. we seem happy enough. and no, i don't refer to a 49 yo man as my boyfriend. typically, i refer to him by his name, or dd's father

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            09.22.09, 12:30 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
          • Why does it matter to you? I've been married for 12 years, but if we never got married, I'd be fine with it. It's just a label.

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            09.22.09, 01:09 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
            • It doesn't matter to me--as I said, I'm just curious why anyone in a committed relationship with children would avoid the "label" of being married. Personally I don't care--I'm divorced--but I've definitely sensed some awkwardness with kids whose parents aren't married--kids tend to like labels and being able to clearly define things. And frankly I know plenty of gay couples who would be quick to argue with your notion that it is just a "label."

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              09.22.09, 01:45 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
              • kids don't want the label, their parents do. generally with kids it doesn't come up unless dear mom/dad has emphasized it.

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                09.22.09, 02:10 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                • I disagree. I think that kids tend to want the labels more than parents do--they're not interested in the subtle nuances of the thing.

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                  09.22.09, 09:17 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • If you ask individuals this question, they'll almost always say they don't have any problem with unmarried families, but you're right that, collectively, our society still rewards married couples, from tax advantages and federal benefits down to friends telling you "it's okay" that you're still single at 32, with the implication that you'd be much better off if you'd find a spouse. It isn't a bias that's going to change anytime soon, but it is slowly changing (the single-parent stigma has faded significantly over the last several decades). If you want to help change it, www.unmarried.org.

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      09.22.09, 11:08 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • tax advantages? what about the marriage penalty?

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        09.22.09, 01:53 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • There is no marriage penalty. There is now a marriage bonus, in fact. What used to be called a "penalty" was a fair standard deduction (a deduction from income, based on basic necessities of life) based on the fact that two married adults living together can live far more cheaply per person than two single adults living apart. This has since been adjusted and now married couples get the same deduction per person that single people get. once again, the federal government passed policy and tax law that rewards people for getting married.

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          09.22.09, 02:36 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
          • before this was passed, it was actually a penalty. an unmarried couple had a tax advantage over a married couple.

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            09.22.09, 02:39 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
            • Not a penalty. An unmarried couple still had (and has) a more expensive life on a per-person basis than a married couple (based on total household expenses, not just rent and furniture - this includes things like health care, car & life insurance, legal expenses...). This is why the standard deduction for married couples was set lower on a per-person basis, and why it should have been left that way.

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              09.22.09, 02:48 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • I have nothing against either scenario. I think Susan Sarandon and Tim Robbins seem just as happy Tom Hanks and Rita Wilson who seem just as happy as Goldie Hawn and Kurt Russell who seem just as happy as Kevin Bacon and Kyra Sedgwick. Different strokes for different folks.

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      09.22.09, 11:09 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • nothing, i hope, as this is us.

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      09.22.09, 11:38 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • i do think that many unmarried couples who live together like spouses find it easier to break up, but that's their problem, not mine. otoh, unmarried couples do not have the same legal benefits and that is a big problem. most women i know who are childless bc they could not find a spouse are not stuck on the "marriage" issue - more on the long term committed partnership w kids issue. if you can't find a serious committed relationship, it's the same problem.

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      09.22.09, 11:41 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • You mean with illegitimate children?

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      09.22.09, 11:45 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • I am like this. I was (believe it or not) a virgin when I got married at 27 because I was saving myself for marriage. Once we got married then we started a family and I didn't want to do it the other way around. Our society has made it acceptable to do what you want when you what and often the results (later) don't turn out like you planned. My dh and I are both happy for the decisions we made it waiting to get married b4 having children but it is different for everyone. The question I wonder about is all the people I hear about getting married 'because' of the pregnancy. If they weren't willing to get married b4, what if anything, changes?

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      09.22.09, 11:47 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • lol. you make it seem as if most marriages don't end in divorce.

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        09.22.09, 12:08 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • Actually most don't end in divorce. But if you stacked up marriages against "partnerships" how well do you think partnerships would fare in comparison to marriages.

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          09.22.09, 01:33 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • Was your husband also a virgin when you married?

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        09.22.09, 12:46 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • People get married "because" of the pregnancy, because they are pressured by society to get married before they have children, regardless of the quality of the marriage. Kind of the OP's point.

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        09.22.09, 01:00 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • We are a fully committed couple, together 13yrs, 3 dc, not married. I am comfortable with it, though some of the issues raised above are significant namely lack of benefits and what to tell dc. Oldest is 9yo and so far we have deflected the when did you get married question. Honestly, just haven't figured out the best way to explain it. We do share health ins, life ins beneficiaries, etc but that is luck. Might need to change ins now and my primary option won't allow me to add opposite sex domestic partners. I refer to DH as "husband" simply because partner or boyfriend require too much explanation. We keep talking about getting married, because it is not particularly meaningful to us, why not just do it? But it's a catch-22. If we do it we...

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      09.22.09, 12:49 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • ^But it's a catch-22. If we do it we want to have a special (albeit tiny) cermeony, but we are too busy/disinterested to actually plan something. So we just keep putting if off because it's easier and we are happy as is.

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        09.22.09, 12:50 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • I don't get the problems people have with "explaining" it to children. "No, mom and dad did not get married. Some people get married, and some people don't." What's to explain?

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        09.22.09, 12:52 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • All people deserve the opportunity to enter into a loving relationship with a long-term partner and to create a family and a home. This is the most basic of human rights universally accepted worldwide. Families are the main organizing structure for our society, they create order and predictability. They allow us to nurture one another and share lives great joys and sorrows. Families, which come in many shapes, forms, and sizes, give life meaning and significance. Unfortunately, the legal protections that go along with relationship recognition and family units are not a reality for most LGBT Americans. TWO CONTRASTING NUMBERS • 24% of Americans lives in states that recognize same-sex relationships by way of marriage or domestic par...

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        09.22.09, 01:42 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • Not to digress, but it kind of chafed me on Top Chef when one of the lesbian contestants protested a "wedding" challenge because she couldn't participate in the institution but then on the next episode when they had to cook a meal for the Air Force, she seemed to have no issues at all. Have we just come to accept "don't ask, don't tell?"

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          09.22.09, 01:49 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
          • Especially when in a previous season of the show, they catered a gay wedding. It's not like they are anti-gay.

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            09.22.09, 02:36 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
            • That's because that particular contestant is totally annoying and will hopefully get booted very soon.

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              09.22.09, 07:49 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
              • She's totally grown on me, actually, and her personal history is interesting, but I don't feel waves of talent radiating from her. Tough group this year--all so goo!

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                09.22.09, 08:58 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • tons of people do this! in my world, it's accepted.

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      09.22.09, 03:05 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • In parts of the US, particularly in blue states and big cities, it is generally no big deal (and it shouldn't be). But there are still large parts of the country where people think it's just plain wrong, for religious or other reasons. Just look at that couple who made national news by getting married at their 7-year-old son's funeral because "he always wanted us to get married." You can't tell me they don't live in a town where people believe firmly that children (and sex, for that matter) are for marriage and people exert pressure to keep it that way.

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        09.22.09, 03:14 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • from a legal standpoint it is better to be married. I also like the symbolic aspect of marriage, makes it easier to stay committed when the going gets tough.

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      09.22.09, 03:18 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • From a legal standpoint, I'm glad I stayed unmarried. If we ever go our separate ways, we won't have to go through a divorce and my entire legal and financial life won't be legally attached to his. I hope we stay together for the rest of our lives, but if we split, what's mine will be mine, not some lawyer's. (With the exception that every couple of years we meet briefly with an attorney to discuss what will happen with the kids if we split, how much child support I'll pay, etc. The kids' interests always come first.)

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        09.22.09, 03:55 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • Well isn't it great that non-same-sex couples have all the options and choices available to them. I tend to favor equal choices, thus I support equal rights for all committed couples.

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          09.22.09, 05:16 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
          • Yes! Gays should be pressured to get married and have kids, too!!

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            09.22.09, 05:24 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
            • we already have kids, and can get married in but a few states--however our marriages do not transfer state to state. I can't wait for the day when my partner of 17 years pressures me to get married, my son gives me away at the alter, and my granddaughter is the flower girl. Yeah, I want that pressure.

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              09.22.09, 05:37 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • i'm finding this question very irritating. why not get married? if your big complaint is the legalities, then just make it legal. if your big complaint is the conformity, then you won't care if you won't conform.

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      09.22.09, 05:32 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
  • [-]Is anyone out there expecting and wrestling with whether or not to get a flu shot? Ummm...I am.

    13 replies [ Reply | Watch | Options ]
    09.08.09, 09:07 PM [ Flag ]
    • I'm pregnant due late October - I'm def. getting seasonal flu and if H1N1 is available will get that too. I've done a ton of research and have come to the conclusion that it's safer than not getting the flu shot - especially because baby will be newborn during winter flu months and can not get a flu shot so she will have some protection from mine (and from breast milk) just my opinion though...

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      09.08.09, 09:13 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • skipping it. I've had the flu and the swine flu. Sucked but got through it.

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      09.08.09, 09:17 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • having the flu does not make you immune to the winter's flu season. new starins are around. Also, you should ask your doctor if having the swine flu previously gives you immunity to this year's strain.

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        09.09.09, 07:18 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • I'm due in December and I teach (grad school) am in contact with lots of students most days... I'm getting the vaccine at the recommendation of my doctor.

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      09.09.09, 04:37 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • I never get flu shots but this year I will be skipping the regular flu shot and getting the swine flu at the urging of my dr. She sys it's just too dangerous to the unborn baby plus my 3 year old at home.

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      09.09.09, 07:16 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • When I was pregnant last Oct. my dr. obgyn wanted me to get it but I refused--I live in NYC and was fine. I did NOT feel 100% comfortable doing it and therefore simply said no, I washewd my hands frequently (also door knobs and kitchen counter tops--with white vinegar and water), took good care of myself and avoided large crowds in confined areas. Do what makes you comfortable.--

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      09.14.09, 11:07 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • I expect I will (due in Dec), although not excited about it (particularly H1N1 / swine shot), wish it had been tested for more than a month on pregnant women. But the mortality rate of women in the 3rd trimester is not great, if you end up in the hospital with pneumonia around 10% of the mothers die (babies survive fine) according to a CDC study from earlier in the year. If you have symptoms call your dr. right away, if you take Tamiflu within 48hrs of first onset outcomes are much better, for everyone, including pregnant women. FYI, I'm no dr, but you can read all this on the CDC site. I have also recently read that pregnant women should get their dr. to write a prescription ahead of time, so if you need it you don't have to take that ex...

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      09.14.09, 01:46 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • I am pregnant and due in October too. Plan to get the H1N1 to protect my newborn. As will my husband and toddler. But my issue is my Nanny does not like any flu shots and is refusing. Anyone having issues like that?

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        09.21.09, 12:34 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • I don't think you can force her but if your toddler is getting one and your newborn has the immunity passed from you I think you'll be fine.

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          09.21.09, 01:22 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • Pregnant, due early Dec. Already got flu shot for me and ds, planning on getting H1N1 shot as asap. I've got other issues though (asthma), so OB said to get in line as soon as I can.

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      09.21.09, 12:37 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • I just got the flu shot and will get H1N1 when it comes out too. Will get my dd (2) both shots too.

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      09.21.09, 01:04 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • I'm 4.5 months pg and was leaning towards getting it - I met a woman over the weekend who is 7 months pg and, ironically, a physician who researches infectious disease and vaccinations. After talking to her about it, I'm 100% going to get both the regular fluy shot and the H1N1.

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      09.21.09, 01:48 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
  • [-]DH just got back from biz trip. Found note on hotel stationery with hooker names/numbers (confirmed via google). Had suspected but this is most concrete evidence. WWYD?

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    09.14.09, 07:58 AM [ Flag ]
    • Get an HIV test ASAP

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      09.14.09, 08:04 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • sorry. so gross. keep the note and start looking for a good divorce attorney.

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      09.14.09, 08:06 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • OP: so many thoughts going through my head. I could email him their photos that are on the web. Or leave print-outs on his desk. ask him how he pays for that when we are struggling to pay mortgage and FT babysitter. ask him if he had fun with Kennedy and Pheonix while I took care of our kid during phase-in week. it's so absurd, the thought of counseling seems ridiculous. my feeling is, ask him if he wants a divorce or to continue in a sham marriage for the sake of our kid and his traditional family.

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        09.14.09, 08:09 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • I'm so sorry this really sucks for you. Why did you suspect dh was doing this? Has he cheated on you before?

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          09.14.09, 08:15 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
          • I previously found escort ## in his search history (two days before our wedding - he said he didn't go through w/ it and I wrote it off as wanting to try it before marriage) and another time found escort info on a note when I was in my first trimester. Again he said he didn't do it. 2 years ago he had a dalliance with a co-worker which I discovered after it got physical but (he says, and I believe) before it was a full-blown affair. That was what triggered counseling. At this point I wonder if he wants me to find out and kick him out.

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            09.14.09, 08:18 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
            • enough about him, YOU need help. This man has proven who he is. If you believe that is good enough for you - then need MAJOR counelling. Woman - THINK

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              09.14.09, 08:21 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
              • OP: Your analysis is a bit simplistic, no? and based on almost no info? the irony is that he is a really great person in many other ways. I've been divorced once, no desire to do it again. Not everyone needs the storybook marriage. I just don't want to be humiliated.

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                09.14.09, 08:23 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                • I"m calling fake, her "analysis" is not simplistic. The man repeatedly goes to hookers and put her (and her dc's)health in serious risk. First responder is right, get an AIDS test NOW! He also has affairs. Any person who would tolerate repeated illegal behavoir, lies, affairs has a self esteem problem.

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                  09.14.09, 08:26 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                  • Have you been cheated on or divorced?

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                    09.14.09, 08:27 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                    • A fiancee cheated on me and I dumped his a$$ in two seconds. I am married and have not been divorced. But I tell you what - if my dc put me at risk for AIDS - he better hope he has it, because that would be a better death than the one I would hand him.

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                      09.14.09, 08:36 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                  • Look Hillary Clinton is still married and so is Sptizer, both these woman are very intellegent and somehow made the choice to stay.

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                    09.14.09, 08:28 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                    • and because HC and Ms. Spitzer do it its right? That's interesting logic.

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                      09.14.09, 08:31 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                      • No, not saying it is right but OP has the right to make a choice to live with it or leave and she may not have low self esteem she may be making a choice that suits her needs.

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                        09.14.09, 08:34 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                  • OP: believe me, I know I have problems - I bet you do too! and I also think this happens a LOT, women put up with it and don't tell their friends. You probably know more people who have looked the other way than you realize.

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                    09.14.09, 08:29 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
            • He sounds pretty serial so if you don't think you can live with mini-Spitzer. Go talk to a lawyer, once you have truly made the decision that you no longer want to be married start thinking about dc and the best way to help your child through this.

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              09.14.09, 08:24 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • You need to keep this information to yourself. As much as you want to flash it in his face, talk to an attorney first.

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          09.14.09, 08:17 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • I'm sorry

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      09.14.09, 08:13 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • OP: and even more ridiculous, it confirms my long-held suspicion that he prefers brunettes and redheads (I am a dirty blonde).

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      09.14.09, 08:14 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • Get a daybed in the living room

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      09.14.09, 08:33 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • I know me and I know that this isn't something I would likely be able to overcome. I do agree with you in that life is complicated and we all have issues (some more than others). (1) I know you know this, but this has nothing to do with you (2) The fact that he is obviously lying about this (and this isn't the first evidence of infidelity is a greater issue. Its really easy to say what we would do when we aren't in the situation. Before I got married I said I would walk out immediately if my dh cheated on me and while I haven't told him, I'm not sure I would. Things aren't always so black and white. The reality of it is that he is putting you in a very unsafe position and you should feel safe in your relationship. Good luck with whatever yo...

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      09.14.09, 03:49 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
  • [-]Law ladies and moms: I am mid 40's and hate my job. I think I really want to go to law school. Is this crazy? Also, I am scared to take the LSAT. I am generally pretty smart but not very good at math do I have a chance at doing well on the test?

    56 replies [ Reply | Watch | Options ]
    09.13.09, 07:51 AM [ Flag ]
    • Every lawyer I know hates being a lawyer.

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      09.13.09, 07:59 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • ditto. including and especially the one I'm married to.

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        09.13.09, 08:02 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • yes well probably 90% of the world hates their job right? I am in a ridiculously terrible profession that I somehow ended up in and I need to start over unfortunately.

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          09.13.09, 08:04 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
          • I understand that, but I think the myth about law is that it's well respected and well paid, but lawyers put up with a lot of crap, work long hours often doing work that is not stimulating and it's only those at the top of their profession who are making the big bucks. Not saying it's not a respectable career, just saying I don't know if it's necessarily a career that one would run away to to be saved from another career. If it's something you're generally interested in and inspired to do that

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            09.13.09, 08:11 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
            • ^^^that's one thing, but if it seems like a way out, I'd seriously look into other fields as well. Not being snarky at all, just being honest and realistic. The other thing is that you'd still have 3 years of school and while law is not as youth oriented as some fields, I still think a new attorney in her mid-40's would have a tough time. Again, if this is really what you want to do, I wouldn't let that deter you, but if it's just an escape from your current career, I'd explore other venues. Good luck. I really mean that. It sucks to feel stuck.

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              09.13.09, 08:14 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
              • This is all valid feedback. I have long regretted not going early on. I am very interested in the law -its not a random choice.

                [ Reply | Options ]
                09.13.09, 08:18 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                • [ Removed by moderator ] [ Options ]
                  09.13.09, 10:13 AM [ | ]
    • I think as long as you understand that not everyone who gets a JD ends up making big money, you will be fine. Hopefully you will not have to take out student loans either. The job market, particularly in the private sector, really stinks right now (tons of articles in the NYTimes about new associates being laid off). DH is a lawyer w/a government agency, went to a top 10 law school 10 years ago, and thanks to enormous student loan payments, we live barely a middle-class lifestyle. He always says he wouldn't do it over again, as do most of my lawyer friends.

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      09.13.09, 08:48 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • If you are scared to take the LSAT, you don't have the right temperament for all the crap of a legal career.

      [ Reply | Options ]
      09.13.09, 09:44 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • i am 44 i havent taken a test since college--thats why i am nervous!

        [ Reply | Options ]
        09.13.09, 09:50 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • The LSAT is more like the SAT in that you don't need to study for it--it's testing your aptitude for the skills needed for law school. Some will argue of course saying that kids study for SATs and there are courses for LSAT prep but the LSAT is in no way like the bar exam. I went into the LSAT cold and did find (oh, and I was 32 when I took it). Your performance on the LSAT will loosely tie to your performance on the bar exam so if you do well, you should have what it takes to get through law school and the bar, if you don't do well, that might help you make up your mind. Best of luck.

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        09.13.09, 10:48 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • I cannot disagree with this more. First, there's no math on the LSAT so you don't need to worry about that, it's all reading comprehension with the exception of the logic portion which is like games. You should absolutely study for the LSAT if you hope to score in the 170s, most well-read people should be able to take it cold and get in the high 150s-160s, but a 170+ is a requirement for any of the top law schools. You definitely need to study the logic section unless you generally have a great aptitude for situation games.

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          09.13.09, 12:48 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
          • I could not agree more with poster above. You should definitely take a prep course.

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            09.13.09, 01:19 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
          • Agree TOTALLY. You should be putting in some serious study time if you want to do well. Since you are so far out of college your LSAT is likely going to be the number 1 factor in determining which school you go to, rather than a combination of GPA and LSAT.

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            09.13.09, 02:11 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
          • I also agree with this. Although I always wanted to go to law school I decided on a whim one year (at 25) that it would be at that moment and only had a week and a half to prepare for the LSAT. Needless to say I did not do very well (high 150s) but still managed to get into a top 20 school but am sure that had I prepared I would have had a better choice of schools. In contrast, I studied long and hard for the bar (NY) and did very well.

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            09.13.09, 08:09 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • Very hard to get any entry level job as a lawyer right now. Could be better in 3-4 years but there will be a bottleneck right in front of you in terms of people just starting out.

      [ Reply | Options ]
      09.13.09, 10:11 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • Don't do it. My husband is a laywer and works like a dog. The pay in his case is pretty good, but his degrees are from the best schools in the country and it really almost doesn't make up for the long tedious hours. The point about firms not hiring now is a good one. There have been massive layoffs at many firms and even those that haven't are slowing or even freezing hiring. His firm is now only looking at people with degrees from the Ivys and Howard (for diversity) as are many others. We're also waiting on tenterhooks to see if he's going to get a bonus this year. Itretty stressful. Start reading the blog AboveTheLaw to keep abreast of happenings. It's not pretty. It'd be much smarter for you to become a doctor or something if you have th...

      [ Reply | Options ]
      09.13.09, 10:24 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • Funny, the lawyers I know who add diversity (i.e. are black and/or women) all went to Harvard and Columbia, not traditionally black schools.

        [ Reply | Options ]
        09.13.09, 10:51 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • Harvard Law is well known for having a large AA population.

          [ Reply | Options ]
          09.13.09, 11:24 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
          • What I was attempting to communicate was that graduates of Howard are considered alongside the Ivys solely to hedge the diversity bet. Other schools of that calibur are not given as much weight during recruiting because they simply aren't good and don't allow for that extra chance to hit the quota. I know AAs from the Ivys as well, but that's not the point now is it?

            [ Reply | Options ]
            09.13.09, 11:48 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
            • Why are you so nasty?

              [ Reply | Options ]
              09.13.09, 12:02 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
            • "quotas" ? why do you automatically equate diversity with quotas?

              [ Reply | Options ]
              09.13.09, 12:03 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
              • "Diversity" is just the new word pc word for "quotas". That's why. Have either of you ever held a corporate job of any type?

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                09.13.09, 12:09 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                • quotas are illegal (and have been for years) under several supreme court decisions, and yes i have been a general counsel of a corp, as well as head of biz/legal at another corp. do you work in hr?

                  [ Reply | Options ]
                  09.13.09, 12:22 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                  • No I don't work in HR. I am just able to parse through the fact that many TT firms look only at Ivy League law schools and Howard (which no one can argue is on a par with Harvard or Yale academically) for recruiting purposes. What other explanation is there for that behavior?

                    [ Reply | Options ]
                    09.13.09, 12:57 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • Why do you want to become a lawyer?

      [ Reply | Options ]
      09.13.09, 10:27 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • i am a very good problem solver, extremely smart (logic, analysis, verbally quick) and I am very interested in the failings of the legal system. I love reading about legal cases and I am a devotee of the constitution and the bill of rights. hokey sounding i guess

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        09.13.09, 10:33 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • I think you'd make a good lawyer.

          [ Reply | Options ]
          09.13.09, 10:50 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
          • So would the other 3 million "very good problem solvers" who are "extremely smart (logic, analysis, verbally quick)" and "interested in the failings of the legal system".

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            09.13.09, 10:54 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • Run for office. You can do that without a JD.

          [ Reply | Options ]
          09.13.09, 10:51 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • have you thought about other careers that involve the law, but without the commitment of getting a JD? Researcher, investigator, paralegal, there are more...

          [ Reply | Options ]
          09.13.09, 11:13 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
          • no but that is interesting. I will look into it. thanks!

            [ Reply | Options ]
            09.13.09, 11:17 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
          • A friend of mine (male) considered at age 43 to go to law school. Instead, he took a 16-month paralegal course at NYU and was amazed at how quickly he was able to land a six-figure (low six-figures -- $116K) job after graduation. He likes working in the legal field, but he also likes working *only* 9-to-5, no weekends or holidays, and with a union contract that offers job security (at least more security than a non-union job) and overtime pay for even one minute past 5:00 p.m.

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            09.13.09, 11:21 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • Okay, that all makes sense. Personality wise, you would make a good fit for the profession. But the hiring is very biased toward younger people. Remember, it's all about getting a job at the end of law school. Your age and gender will work against you in a big way.

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          09.13.09, 11:22 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • clearly i'm in the minority here, but i'm a lawyer and i've had a rewarding career. the beauty of a jd is that it is a versatile degree that you can do a lot with other than "practicing law." most of the posters so far refer to their dh's and are not lawyers themselves so their perspective is different.

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      09.13.09, 12:00 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • I am also a lawyer (posted above), and while I would not do anything different, going to law school in your mid-40s as a woman with a family is a VERY different thing than the choices I made.

        [ Reply | Options ]
        09.13.09, 12:03 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • What is your current job and why do you hate it?

      [ Reply | Options ]
      09.13.09, 12:20 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • My aunt went back in her early 40's and had a rewarding career for 20 years. She loved it and was very happy that she did it.

      [ Reply | Options ]
      09.13.09, 12:42 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • NP here: Okay so my DH thinks I am nuts b/c the cost of school will be much larger than my earning potential (given age etc). So given what little you know about me what do I do to re-invent my career?

      [ Reply | Options ]
      09.13.09, 04:12 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • medical sales is such a cakewalk compared to law. I don't think you'd adapt well to the grind. The advice to become an investigator or paralegal was good.

      [ Reply | Options ]
      09.13.09, 05:02 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • One thing to consider is that much of the appealing, high-profile type of legal work to which people aspire (challenging unfair laws or unequal access to healthcare, protecting civil rights and the environment, etc.) is done either by low or moderately paid nonprofits or government, or by private firm attorneys using a fraction of their time for pro bono. So if you need to make a "real" living (6 figures), consider whether you would enjoy litigating contracts and commercial disputes or negotiating deals between corporations. This is somewhat oversimplified, but do look hard at the kind of work that attorneys for big vs. small private firms, solo practitioners, and public interest groups/gov't do.

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      09.14.09, 06:57 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • listen closely: if you want to be a lawyer, make sure you spend lots of hours learning about the lives that lawyer's lead - the schedules, what they do, the stress etc. i personally think it is one of the worst possible choices (i chose it myself). you really need to do your homework on this one.

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      09.14.09, 07:00 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • As a lawyer who likes her job, I think law can be a great profession. I would caution, however, that law school is a big commitment of time and money. It's best if you have an idea of what kind of job you want coming out of law school and what kind of money you want to make before you make the commitment. What your ultimate goal is will affect how much money you are willing to spend on school and whether, in the end, you decide law school is worth it. Compared to finding a job that makes you happy after school, the LSATs are a minor hurdle.

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        09.14.09, 07:59 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • Don't do it unless the school is free. Late in life to take on debt for a career you might not like. Many lawyers don't get much money and don't get treated esp well. (I am ex-big firm, in-house for 10 years now at 2 different companies.)

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      09.14.09, 08:00 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • lawyer here. find out how long LSAT scores are "good" for and then make a plan for that many years +1. year 1 - keep your job, take a prep course, take the LSAT. then figure out the best schools you have a chance at getting into based on your scores, and if it's not at least 2nd tier, forget it. if top 10 or 20 (depending on where you're located), apply and see how it goes. if between top 20 and bottom of 2nd tier, i'd apply and defer or hold off applying and try to get a job (any job) in the kind of organization you'd hope to work at after graduating. admission, scholarships and employability will be greater with actual experience in the field, with the added advantage of helping you to understand whether you actually want to be a la...

      [ Reply | Options ]
      09.14.09, 09:48 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
  • [-]Capitol police are estimating that between 1 to 2 million people are protesting out of control government spending today.

    32 replies [ Reply | Watch | Options ]
    09.12.09, 12:28 PM [ Flag ]
    • it's on the news. I'm not surprised

      [ Reply | Options ]
      09.12.09, 12:41 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • [ Removed by moderator ] [ Options ]
        09.12.09, 02:30 PM [ | ]
    • That's quite a turnout.

      [ Reply | Options ]
      09.12.09, 12:42 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • Where were they 6 years ago?

      [ Reply | Options ]
      09.12.09, 12:52 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • It is funny that these people complain about going into debt/spending to help themselves and their country, BUT were completely silent when we spent billions to wage a war.

      [ Reply | Options ]
      09.12.09, 12:54 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • ITA. I hope the President pulls us out of both wars. My nephew is on his 4th tour. Ugh. It sickens me.

        [ Reply | Options ]
        09.12.09, 12:56 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • Yes, I always watch the death call in the NYT---there was a 31 yo woman from Ohio--bet she was a mom:(

          [ Reply | Options ]
          09.12.09, 12:57 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
          • When I hear about troops being killed or maimed, I literally hold my breath. My husband actually has to tell me breath and not to panic. I feel sick praying it's not my nephew, while at the same time know that those soldiers are somebody's child.

            [ Reply | Options ]
            09.12.09, 01:11 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • It seems odd to us, educated urban types, that this disparity exists. Does that indicate how out of touch we are with the rest of the country? Maybe more Americans are upset about the bailouts and stimulus than are against the war.

        [ Reply | Options ]
        09.12.09, 01:28 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • Estimates are way off. More like a few thousand.

      [ Reply | Options ]
      09.12.09, 01:26 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • It's at least tens of thousands - look at the pictures

        [ Reply | Options ]
        09.12.09, 01:29 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • I confirmed it with the Park Police in DC. At most 5 thousand.

          [ Reply | Options ]
          09.12.09, 01:31 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
          • How did you confirm it with the police? How do you know their estimates are better than anyone else's?

            [ Reply | Options ]
            09.12.09, 01:34 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
            • I asked my source. The Parks Police oversee the protection of all the Capitol's monuments and work closely with the secret service.

              [ Reply | Options ]
              09.12.09, 01:38 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
              • The associated press said tens of thousands.

                [ Reply | Options ]
                09.12.09, 01:48 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                • I think I'll take the police word over AP. At least on this one.

                  [ Reply | Options ]
                  09.12.09, 01:50 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                  • From your secret unbiased source LOL rebel in ignorance and denial

                    [ Reply | Options ]
                    09.12.09, 01:52 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                    • Back at ya! Be sure to use enough starch to hold up the point on your sheet.

                      [ Reply | Options ]
                      09.12.09, 01:56 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                      • I don't understand this response at all. When did this discussion turn racist in your opinion?

                        [ Reply | Options ]
                        09.12.09, 02:04 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                        • When the poster chose to insult me. I figure it was a free for all. I an accept the people will have differing perspective. But why respond with laughter and saying some is ignorant and in denial unless you're looking for a fight and want to insult.

                          [ Reply | Options ]
                          09.12.09, 02:06 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                        • Honest question -- When someone insults you, do you automatically think that person is racist?

                          [ Reply | Options ]
                          09.12.09, 02:17 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                        • No, I don't. But I don't get the reason to insult at all when someone disagrees with a post or topic. There is no need to call names or dish out ridicule. But insulting seems to be the name of the game on UB.

                          [ Reply | Options ]
                          09.12.09, 02:23 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                        • You're right. UB can get ugly quickly and for little reason. I'm not defending that. I was asking about the racist comment because I've been surprised in the past when I've been called rasist for completely non-racial remarks. I worry that if people call racism too quickly we will all become hardened to it and real racism will start to be ignored. Kind of like the boy who cried wolf. In this thread I don't know the race of anyone. Although I have started to think of you as AA since the KKK comment.

                          [ Reply | Options ]
                          09.12.09, 02:30 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                      • [ Removed by moderator ] [ Options ]
                        09.12.09, 02:30 PM [ | ]
              • The Parks Police were ordered by Congress to stop estimating crowd size in 1996. Google, it makes things very simple. Which isn't to say your source didn't tell you it was 2000. Your source however is not an expert at estimating crowd size.

                [ Reply | Options ]
                09.12.09, 01:59 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                • I never said there were 2000. That was the poster below.

                  [ Reply | Options ]
                  09.12.09, 02:01 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                  • My mistake, you said 5 thousand. That doesn't change the fact that Park Police haven't offically estimated crowd size in over a decade.

                    [ Reply | Options ]
                    09.12.09, 02:16 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                    • True. Doesn't mean they don't go to the proper sources/supervisors to get the numbers so they can do their jobs effectively. I was just answering the question honestly. I disagree with the number in OPs post, but I could be wrong and I'm fine with that.

                      [ Reply | Options ]
                      09.12.09, 02:20 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
          • [ Removed by moderator ] [ Options ]
            09.12.09, 02:30 PM [ | ]
    • That would be "nearly 2000"

      [ Reply | Options ]
      09.12.09, 01:34 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • I guess only the left is allowed to protest.

      [ Reply | Options ]
      09.12.09, 01:53 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • I don't get this? They *are* protesting. No one is stopping them with water hoses, dogs, battons, and beatings they way they tried to stop my grandmother during the marches in the south in the 1960s.

        [ Reply | Options ]
        09.12.09, 02:15 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • Look at the first photo on this link. That's way more than 2,000 people http://michellemalkin.com/2009/09/12/celebrating-the-912-rallies/

      [ Reply | Options ]
      09.12.09, 01:57 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • Anyone can post a picture and label it anyway they want on the internet. Can you post a reputable news source that gives numbers any larger than "in the thousands?" I'm not finding anything online.

        [ Reply | Options ]
        09.12.09, 02:46 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
  • [-]So PS 44 has now been subdivided into four separate schools? How's that going to work?

    8 replies [ Reply | Watch | Options ]
    09.07.09, 03:50 AM [ Flag ]
    • Correction - I meant MS 44 - Columbis & 77th.

      [ Reply | Options ]
      09.07.09, 03:55 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • I thought it was 3 schools because IS 44 is being phased out, and replaced with a new middle school. Computer School has the top floor, the new middle school has the 2nd floor, Anderson has the first and ground floors. It's a huge building.

      [ Reply | Options ]
      09.07.09, 04:40 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • But IS 44 still has kids who haven't yet been phased out so that's one. The new computer school is two. West Side Prep is three and Anderson is four. All in one building.

        [ Reply | Options ]
        09.07.09, 06:20 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • so what? Maybe West Side Prep and IS 44 are sharing the same space, and who knows the actual number of students in each. I have been inside the building (Anderson parent), and the place is huge. I don't see the problem.

          [ Reply | Options ]
          09.07.09, 06:23 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
          • You will.

            [ Reply | Options ]
            09.07.09, 01:40 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
            • another anderson parent and, according to my dd, so far she hasn't even seen a kid that attends another school in the building -- the building is so big, their paths don't even cross. anderson has its own cafeteria, auditorium, specialty rooms, library, bathrooms -- the only shared space is the gym (on the 2nd floor). the building is huge.

              [ Reply | Options ]
              09.11.09, 12:54 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
              • funny, i walk by there in the morning (to subway)and see the MS students loitering around all the entrances. also the police officers at every corner. and the school buses lining up to let them out. 77th street looks pretty treacherous to me.

                [ Reply | Options ]
                09.11.09, 01:09 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
              • Another Anderson parent here: the cafeteria and auditorium are used by all the schools in the building, as is the gym. The principals have worked out the scheduling so that for the most part, only 1 school uses a space at a given time. Anderson does have its own library, specialty rooms and bathrooms however.

                [ Reply | Options ]
                09.11.09, 02:02 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]

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