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  • [-]Religious UBers: where is God when little girls and boys are getting raped and sodomized for years on end in Missouri?

    53 replies [ Reply | Watch | Options ]
    11.20.09, 11:05 AM [ Flag ]
    • Evil exists alongside good, you know.

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      11.20.09, 11:15 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • not interfering because that's what we have free will for.

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      11.20.09, 11:17 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • I thought this was for folks who religiously UBed - like a trick question only folks who've been here a lot would get

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      11.20.09, 11:24 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • OP: this is my biggest struggle with religion, and why I can't get on the bandwagon. What's the point of worshipping some Almighty "all-powerful" being that is powerless to save innocent children who have no one else?

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      11.20.09, 11:31 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • What? Was this some kind of news story or something?

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      11.20.09, 11:49 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • I guess no one else is as effected by this as I am

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      11.20.09, 12:10 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • There is a significant difference between being religious and being spiritual. Religion is about rules and "worshipping some Almighty "all-powerful"being. Spirituality is about morals, values, ethics, understanding, forgiveness and hope in the face of adversity.

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        11.20.09, 12:15 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • No, spirituality refers to the "spirit", the non-physical soul that most religions hold as a central tenet of their belief systems. What you describe (wrongly) as "spirituality" is actually a mixture of ethics and self-help psychology.

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          11.20.09, 04:16 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • Religion is about rules? Whose religion? That is an awfully general statement.

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          11.20.09, 06:38 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • Good grief, I am not religious at all (atheist in fact), but could your post be any more baiting?

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      11.20.09, 12:11 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • OP: it's an honest question. There are people out there who are very passionate about their religion and I'm curious how they work this one out in their minds...

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        11.20.09, 12:16 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • i guess, but wow, so hostile. you can't blame "religious people" in general for this sort of thing.

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          11.20.09, 12:22 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
          • OP: what do you mean hostile and how is this blaming anyone? To repeat: I'm interested in hearing how they work this out in their minds

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            11.20.09, 12:25 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
            • i think it's the tone of your original post. the question is a good one, and worth discussion, but the tone struck me as hostile. maybe it's just me, though.

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              11.20.09, 12:30 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
              • I agree. I'm 'religious' (I don't even like that word) and I didn't want to touch this post with a ten-foot pole. You sound like you've already made up your mind and just want to slam people who believe in God. If you're interested in a genuine, open-minded debate, that is one thing. But from what you just posted about 'working it out in their minds' it sounds like you really can people who can possibly believe in God in an evil world.

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                11.20.09, 06:40 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                • Sorry my post got messed up--you really can't understand people who believe in God is what I was trying to write before the window closed!

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                  11.20.09, 06:50 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
          • np: the accused are religous people

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            11.20.09, 12:32 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • I saw that news story, and it is pretty out there. Perhaps these things really happened. But there is a good chance that they did not. Remember the case of rampant sexual abuse in a daycare center in CA... that got tons of media attention, despite having not actually occurred? Innocent until proven guilty. I don't think that it makes sense to question God every time you hear a wild story in the news.

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      11.20.09, 12:16 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • OP: Fair point.

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        11.20.09, 12:19 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • I agree this story really seems to out there to be real and it is getting more bizarre every minute. Like you, it reminds me of all those ritual satanic abuse cases that were so prevalent in the eighties that turned out to be fake.

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        11.20.09, 12:39 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • god is dead

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      11.20.09, 12:33 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • now THAT makes sense

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        11.20.09, 12:39 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • the trial for mankind will commence as soon as a jury can be empanelled. please stand by.

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        11.20.09, 12:42 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • big words and even bigger concept coming from someone who can't back it up. better hope you are right when the end comes, otherwise you've made an infinite mistake. i'm always curious by people who are so black and white when it comes to God...after all, what makes you the authority on the Almighty?

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        11.20.09, 03:27 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • God gives us free will because he desires a loving relationship with us that we freely choose. Also without free will, so much of the beauty of honorable, decent human behavior would be lost. Yet, because humanity is flawed and often deeply broken, we use that free will to make hurtful and sometimes horrific decisions. As much as we think our hearts are broken by the wicked crimes people commit, God's heart is infinitely more broken. Although God offers forgiveness and redemption for those who seek it, those who commit these crimes and do not repent will face judgment far greater than any we can imagine. Just because God does not make all of us souless robots who always do good does not mean that He abandons us when awful things occur; ...

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      11.20.09, 06:36 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • Thank you! Well put.

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        11.20.09, 06:41 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • np: Thank you for responding. I feel the same.

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        11.20.09, 06:53 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • So, why does God allow innocent children to drown in a tsunami or get crushed in an earthquake?

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        11.20.09, 08:13 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • As Christians, we do our best to indicate some of the reasons why God permits evil in the world (free will, natural law, soul-making); but we have finite minds and will never fully understand God's justifications. Corrie Ten Boom, a Dutch Christian whose family hid Jews during WWII, lost seven family members including her father and sister in a concentration camp. She often quoted this poem about God's love exceeding all suffering and evil:

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          11.21.09, 05:23 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
          • My life is but a weaving between my Lord and me. I cannot choose the colors, He worketh steadily. Oft times he weaveth sorrow, and I in foolish pride, Forget He sees the upper, and I the underside. Not till the looms are silent and the shuttles cease to fly, Will God unroll the canvas and explain the reason why The dark threads are as needful in the Weaver’s skillful hand As the threads of gold and silver in the pattern He has planned. Author Unknown

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            11.21.09, 05:23 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
          • Right, so you have no idea. We will "never fully understand God's justifications". If I applied your lack of intellectual rigor to the world, I could believe in anything I wanted. I'm afraid it's just not remotely credible that an omnipotent, omniscient, supremely benevolent being exists.

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            11.21.09, 06:44 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
            • Some would argue that acknowledging the limits of moral knowledge constitutes intellectual courage rather than laziness. Perhaps arrogance is thinking that, just because our minds cannot conceive of something's (or someone's) plausibility, it cannot exist. If God does exist, I would guess that His character and ways would far exceed our mind's ability to comprehend them. At the end of the day, horrible things are still happening in the world and despite our struggle to explain why, broken people still need our love and care.

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              11.21.09, 07:54 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • Most religious people do not look at God as being an omnipotent puppetmaster one placates in order to succeed. Your question oversimplifies a complex relationship.

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      11.21.09, 10:14 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • God was still with Jesus when he was crucified and died. The message of Christianity is that God is always with you, no matter how horrifying or humiliating your circumstances. This tenant of Christianity brings me great personal comfort. Those dear children are loved.

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      11.21.09, 10:51 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
  • [-]Sarah Palin's son, Trig, was one of the "hot topics" on The View today. Barbara Walters read a statistic that 90% of fetuses found to have down syndrome are terminated. Last poll I read said something like the split between pro-life/pro-choice in the US is close to 50/50, so I don't see, mathematically, how it can be that 90% of ds pregnancies are terminated.

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    11.18.09, 08:20 AM [ Flag ]
    • I think it is probably bc many people are pro-life until they are faced with having to raise a DS child.

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      11.18.09, 08:21 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • Or that pro-choice people have a disproportionate number of DS pregnancies. Maybe it has something to do with age--women who wait to get married and have children in order to build their careers are statistically more likely to be pro-choice. Then they are older when they get pregnant so DS is more likely.

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        11.18.09, 08:25 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • NP: Just a hunch, but I would guess what you say may be more true for NYC, where many women wait to have children... but for the country as a whole, I would guess more pro-lifers tend to have babies with down syndrome, because many don't believe in birth control and thus continue to have children into their forties. In our Catholic church there were many babies with downs-syndrome (usually the youngest in the family). I imagine that not every woman feels she can handle that at forty with many other children to care for as well (pro-life or not).

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          11.18.09, 08:54 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • ITA. You don't really know what you believe until you are tested.

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        11.18.09, 08:26 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • I don't agree entirely. I opted at 40 not to have a cvs or amnio because I knew that whatever I learned wouldn't change anything, I was going to have that baby anyway. Some of us know what we believe on this subject without being tested.

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          11.18.09, 08:32 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
          • And others think they do until they're faced with a frightening reality.

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            11.18.09, 08:34 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
            • Yes, but as someone pointed out below if you know you won't terminate there's no point in getting the testing done. By opting out of the tests I was making a descision to have my child regardless of the number of chromosones he had.

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              11.18.09, 08:39 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
              • Not true. There is a point to getting testing, even if you will not terminate under any circumstances. If you do have a DB that will have a problem, then you have the time/ability to prepare for what's coming. Arranging for necessary specialists, arranging leaves/benefits, preparing older DCs, etc.

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                11.18.09, 10:29 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                • And those are the 10% who found out dc had Down's and didn't abort. For many of us, the risk of the procedure causing harm outweigh any benefit of lining up specialists.

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                  11.18.09, 10:30 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                  • The risk of the procedure varies by doctor. If you don't trust your doctor to properly perform an amnio, find a new doctor.

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                    11.18.09, 10:34 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                    • Why is it not OK in your book for someone to elect to not have the procedure? You are being very anti-choice.

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                      11.18.09, 10:39 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • yup. I think this is the ans. dead on.

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        11.18.09, 08:38 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • It's "anti-abortion," not "pro-life." Let's stop playing into the hands of the Christian Right by using their terminology. I am pro-choice. I am not anti-life.

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        11.18.09, 08:40 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • OP here - I used old-school terms, sorry. The Christian Right also refer to pro-choice as "pro-abortion," didn't want to offend anyone, just to get some speculation on the numbers.

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          11.18.09, 08:45 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
          • or: sorry, didn't mean to call you out. i just hate that we have all adopted these terms without thinking about what they imply. it is my mission in life to reframe the terms to something more accurate that doesn't feed into the crazy christian right agenda.

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            11.18.09, 08:48 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • your semantics make no sense. You are "pro-choice", not "anti-life" but those who are "pro-life" are "anti-abortion", you sound like an idiot... be consistent.

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          11.19.09, 03:41 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • I read an article about pro-life women who have abortions. It happens

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      11.18.09, 08:22 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • well, you don't know howthat 50/50 split is skewed by gender or age. and yes, people who say they are pro-life have abortions.

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      11.18.09, 08:24 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • The great irony is that the traditional "red" states have (1) higher divorce rates, (2) higher # of abortions and (3) higher % of poverty... People don't do what they "believe"--they are better at telling other people what to do...

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      11.18.09, 08:24 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • do you think those red states have no blue in them? that doesn't really make any statistical sense--

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        11.18.09, 08:28 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • residents of red states, on average, tend to be less eductaed, poorer, less white- this contributes to higher rates of all that you suggest above. The education levels and incerased poverty have way more to do with it than the political convictions-

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        11.18.09, 08:44 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • i thought poor are more likely to have baby, whereas wealthy are more likely to have abortion?

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          11.18.09, 08:49 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
          • actually, lots of poor women have multiple abortions- lack of access to health care and bad choices lead to lack of birth control, so they use abortion as a form of birth control- also teenagers pregnant more in poorer areas (and places where sex education is weak- hello red states!) and they get abortions-

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            11.18.09, 08:59 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • what a tragically black and white way to look at the world. do you teach your child that the people in "red states" are ignorant, right wingers? how sad.

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        11.18.09, 10:50 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • red states have higher teen pregnancy rates as well. read "red sex, blue sex," in the new yorker, from a year ago.

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          11.18.09, 12:47 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • I wonder what the ages of the moms who terminate are vs those who don't. IME its easier to be pro-life, or see any issue in black and while with no shades of grey, when you're young. As we get older, wiser, and have more life experiences to draw from most issues enter the grey area.

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      11.18.09, 08:25 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • I never claimed to know what others could/should do but I always said I would never opt for termination of my child. Then quad screen said 1:4 for Trisomy 18/21 and I did research on what T18/21 is. And I thought about the two kids we already had. And the world got very very gray.

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        11.18.09, 08:29 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • Wow. This is really interesting. I had a baby not long ago and wondered what I'd have done in that situation. And?

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          11.18.09, 08:37 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
          • Sorry, I should not have dropped it there -- I got pulled away. When they hooked up the ultrasound to do the amnio there was no heart beat. Decision averted. Fate's kindness has never hurt so much.

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            11.18.09, 08:45 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • because a) many people who are pro-life don't have an amnio b/c they know they wouldn't abort no matter what the test shows and b) some people consider themselves pro-life but still make exceptions so in a poll they would answer that they are pro-choice, but what they really mean is that abortion isn't a form of birth control.

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      11.18.09, 08:33 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • The pro-lifers I know believe that amnio is unnecessary and dangerous.

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        11.18.09, 08:43 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • Yes, I think I have heard that some pro-lifers will not have an amnio because they feel it implies that they MIGHT abort.

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        11.18.09, 09:34 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • I am prolife and I choose not to have an amnio. Not because of what it might imply to anyone. I choose not to because of the potential risk of amnio. I know many prolife people and having an amnio or not is just a matter of what they feel comfortable with. Some people just need to know. Just like some people just need to know the sex of the baby.

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          11.19.09, 06:30 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • I agree with poster who says pro-lifers probabyl don't ahev an amnio, I'd be curious to really know if the stat is 90% of DS pregnancies, or 90% of pregnancies where the mother tests and finds out the baby has DS- we're talking very different populations here!

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      11.18.09, 08:42 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • I'm pro life and did not have an amino. I did not want to be in the position of having to make an decision. It all worked out and my children are healthy. BTW, most people thought I was crazy for not having test before babies born.

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        11.18.09, 08:44 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • I choose not to have any tests and no one except my dr. has ever asked me anything at all about it. Do people really get into other peoples personal decisions like that?

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          11.19.09, 06:32 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • Palin's behavior after she went into labor with Trig was so completely bizarre and showed such indifference to the health and well-being of her child that I can't help wondering whether she did not want him to live.

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      11.18.09, 08:48 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • please elaborate!

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        11.18.09, 08:49 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • ITA. She was leaking fluid and decided to go give a speech!

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        11.18.09, 08:50 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • Not only give a speech--fly home from Texas to Alaska!! http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/10/palins-medica-2.html

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          11.18.09, 09:01 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
          • That's a crazy article - I can't believe she had the amnio to supposedly prepare herself for any diagnosis, but then didn't tell her children.

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            11.18.09, 09:53 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
          • Andrew Sullivan, the daily dish, is a kook. He is not a responsible journalist, but a conspiracy theorist who does not report facts.

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            11.19.09, 03:45 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
            • Really? I'm not a huge fan of him personally, but don't consider him remotely kooky or inventive re facts. And the Atlantic is pretty tough re that kind of thing. What supposed non-facts do you have a quibble with here? Most people on UB would tell you that most airlines won't even let you fly after 8 mos. and it's true that she was leaking amniotic fluid. If that were you, would YOU get on a long flight? No way, unless you felt indifferent or worse towards your baby's health and survival.

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              11.19.09, 04:18 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
              • How do you know for fact that she was leaking amniotic fluid? SHe gave birth in a HOSPITAL, and there were no complications. Not on the plane, not on the road, not on the bus, but in a hospital room.

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                11.20.09, 03:44 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
              • Andrew Sullivan started the conspiracy theory that Sarah Palin was actually the grandmother to her son. I do not think the Atlantic truly vetted that story, surprising that they still stand by Sullivan. He went off the reservation a long time ago.

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                11.21.09, 10:14 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                • he started that rumor? Hardly. And the above link is not to Sullivan. Talk all you want about conspiracy theories--the whole story, even as told directly by Palin, is fishy beyond belief.

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                  11.21.09, 10:27 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • i have thought something similar. not necessarily that she didn't want him to live, but that she was really ambivalent, at best, about the whole thing.

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        11.18.09, 08:52 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • Yes, that whole thing was weird as hell. I never believed the "Bristol is Trig's real mother" rumor but Palin's behavior surrounding this birth was just crazy. I never thought of that as an explanation but actually I can sort of believe that she was losing her mind a little bit and feeling very, "Let God decide what he wants to happen," about it.

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        11.18.09, 09:38 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • you people are very creepy.

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          11.19.09, 03:46 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
          • We're not the ones who got on a 8-hour plane flight while in labor. Now that's creepy.

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            11.19.09, 04:25 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
            • you know she was in labor? You do know she gave birth in a hospital.....

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              11.20.09, 03:45 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
              • Her water was broken! This was her fifth pregnancy, you can't tell me she didn't know that was a sign of labor.

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                11.20.09, 07:01 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                • Are you quoting Plain who said her water broke or are you getting the info from the dubious Andrew Sullivan of the "daily dish"... this is beyond creepy.

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                  11.20.09, 11:53 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                  • According to the New York Times, Palin herself has said that her water was broken when she got on the plane.

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                    11.20.09, 12:01 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                  • Just in case you missed it, no it was not just Andrew Sullivan.

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                    11.20.09, 12:23 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                    • meant to add this http://www.ktuu.com/global/story.asp?s=8194634

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                      11.20.09, 12:24 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                      • never read the link, but the discussion of amniotic fluid as if this is pertinent information that needs to be addressed months after a safe delivery is strange. Move along and discuss her policies, not her amniotic fluid.

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                        11.21.09, 03:10 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                        • LOL--if SHE never discusses her policies then why should we? She literally told Oprah that she thought that she and Katie Couric would be talking about being working moms and dealing with teenaged girls (as if anyone would want to take advice from her on that subject) and was shocked, shocked! when Couric actually anted to discuss you know tough stuff like what newspapers she reads. If that's not foolish AND sexist than I don't know what is. Palin is the one who has made her family the center of every discussion including her oh-so-noble decision to have a DS child. I personally think the circs. were completely suspect and so do many other people. If she ever stopped harping on it, then it wouldn't be relevant.

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                          11.21.09, 07:39 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                        • The moral superiority that you insinuate in your"oh-so-noble decision" comment is the problem that most critics have... no substance. Couric's interview was nasty, not informative... your right Palin does not read newspapers!!! couric got to the heart of that one. The reason you think she is so "suspect" is because you don't like her politics so you go after amniotic fluid.

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                          11.21.09, 10:08 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                        • Kind of like how conservatives didn't like Clinton's politics so they went after his sex life?

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                          11.21.09, 10:32 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                        • LOL!! Again it was the choice of Palin and her crew to put her family at the very heart of her candidacy, so I don't know why they got so upset when things started falling apart. And the way right-wingers have beatified her for giving birth to Trig is at the core of the "moral superiority" drumbeat here--how many times do we have to hear and read "a liberal would've aborted that baby blah blah blah?" My personal opinion, based on her actions as described by her at the end of her pregnancy, is that she did not value the life of that baby but didn't want to take responsibility for ending it's life. NO ONE on this board would condone doing what she did and risking the life of their unborn child. If that's your idea of a saintly mom then so be ...

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                          11.21.09, 10:33 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                        • frankly if Clinton had based a substantial part of his candidacy on his family values, his fantastic, rick-solid marriage, moral uprightness, etc. then yes--it would have been more relevant. But we knew from the start that we were getting a rogue--no secret. I'm not defending his behavior, but it's the hypocrisy that stinks here.

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                          11.21.09, 10:35 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • These studies are flawed in that people who pursue prenatal diagnosis in general are more likely to terminate an affected pregnancy. I am a genetic counselor and work in a population where I would say 80% of patients decided against amniocentesis/CVs, so we have no idea what they would do if they found out a pregnancy was affected. Prenatal diagnosis of Down syndrome by maternal blood sampling is coming. When the risk from the procedure is taken out, and more people have testing, we may get a better idea of what the true statistic is.

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      11.18.09, 08:52 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • I'm Catholic, would not have terminated a pregnancy and had an amnio. I grew up with a cousin who had Down's, and knew that if there was something wrong with my DB, I'd want to know, so that I could be prepared to manage the situation - line up the right specialists in advance, prepare other family members, arrange DH and my leave/benefits, etc. Just having an amnio doesn't automatically mean anything.

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      11.18.09, 09:10 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • abortion is one of those issues where how we feel is not how we act when reality hits us in the face. Lots of anti-choice folks will abort when it's their lives that are about to get turned upsidedown with an unwanted pregnancy.

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      11.18.09, 10:38 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • For some maybe but not for most. If you really believe something, you don't just stop believing it because circumstances change.

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        11.19.09, 06:35 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • No, you keep opposing abortion -- while having one when it's your own pregnancy you want to end. Amazing how many anti-choice types lack the courage of their convictions when they (or someone in their family) gets pregnant.

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          11.20.09, 06:58 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • we tried 8 years to have my daughter and were told during one of her screenings she had markers for downs. i'm pro-choice, but refused a amnio and refused to abort. i never thought about raising a special needs child, but i knew that she was a miracle and couldn't wait for her arrival regardless. anyway, all went well despite concerns and we delivered a perfectly, beautiful, brilliant and happy baby. so you never know.

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      11.18.09, 10:49 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • I am pro-choice but I knew I would never terminate a Downs baby. I did the nuchal fold testing (both for my twins and my singleton) to get some idea of the risks. When it was normal, I opted not to do CVS or amnio. If the nuchal fold had shown a high risk, I likely would have done more testing just to do as an earlier poster suggested - line up specialists, read up on the challenges etc. etc.

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        11.18.09, 12:36 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • bc many people don't think beyond elective abortions in the event of unwanted pregnancies - so they say they are "anti abortion" or "prolife". those same people can feel very differently when faced with the possibility of a db w DS or other serious medical/physical/congenital issues.

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      11.18.09, 12:44 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • many people think that being "pro-life" means that they personally would never get an abortion and that being "pro-choice" means that they would. they don't get that it's a political viewpoint: being prolife means that you think that NO WOMAN should be allowed to get an abortion and being prochoice means you think that the choice to terminate or continue a pregnancy should be in the hands of the woman. It's kind of like being anti-poverty does not mean only that you personally don't want to be poor...

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      11.18.09, 12:52 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • you are wrong... I am pro-choice for others, pro-life for myself. Quite frankly, if women want to abort their children there is nothing I could do to stop them. Therefore, I believe women should be able to abort their babies, I just would never abort my own.

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        11.19.09, 03:48 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • walk a mile in someone else's shoes...

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          11.19.09, 05:58 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • or: that is EXACTLY what I am saying. pro-choice is a political stance meaning that you believe women should ahve the right to choose to terminate OR to keep a pregnancy. Pro-life means that you believe that women should NOT have that right - that the government should make it illegal to terminate a pregnancy. Neither has anything to do with what decision you would make about your own pregnancy.

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          11.20.09, 12:47 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
          • I am prolife. Everything is not as black and white as your perceive in your views of what it means to be "prochoice" or "prolife" and most of America is in the gray area. I am cognizant that some mothers will abort their children.... and again, my energies are better spent in living my life than worrying about mothers who abort their children. Most of America is in the grey area. Not the black and white world you insist is reality.

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            11.21.09, 03:06 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • I am absolute about this. f there is any chance that baby would be DS or even be slightly mentally retarded, or have any birth defects, I would abort it. No way jose.

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      11.20.09, 06:14 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • Thank you for letting us know what kind of children you would let live , and the others that you would abort. Again, your decision as a mother.

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        11.20.09, 11:54 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • any sort of birth defect? what if it is something like missing a toe? or a cleft lip? would you really abort for any type of birth defect? they are so common and most kids do fine!

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        11.20.09, 12:14 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
  • [-]My ds has language school for 4 hours on saturdays and HATES it. He is 7. It is very important for us culturally that he speaks it. Do I stick to it? I think he would really regret quitting when he is older.

    34 replies [ Reply | Watch | Options ]
    11.07.09, 12:33 PM [ Flag ]
    • I think you are teaching something important by making kids stick with something. Maybe stick through this year and then give him an out option. You may be surprised- he might change his mind a few years from now, especially if you go to the country where the language is spoken and he makes friends. But my parents made me play the cello for years which I sort of hated, but it really taught me self discipline which I really needed later in life to get through college and some of my jobs.

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      11.07.09, 12:36 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • I feel like he has such a rich life full of things he loves but that this is important. I hope I am not making a huge mistake

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        11.07.09, 12:38 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • Hum, I just thought of something else. I despised Sunday School, not because it was religious and boring, but because I went to a different school during the week than all the other kids and it was extremely stressful for me to go there and not have anyone to sit with, etc. I had a nice group of friends at my school, and I felt really uncomfortable there because I was an outsider. Wonder if something like that is going on.

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          11.07.09, 12:42 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • This "lesson" of sticking with something is more appropriate for a 12 year old, not a 7 year old. Why are you putting so much pressure and stress on this child? If it's so important to you "culturally" that he speak the language, then perhaps you and your DH should make an effort to speak ONLY in that language at home, so he's immersed in it.

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        11.08.09, 10:37 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • Is there another program that is not as long that is maybe more fun? You also don't want to hate it so much that he resents it.

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      11.07.09, 12:36 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • no. nothing. It would have to be during the week, late and he would then have to miss his after school sports

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        11.07.09, 12:38 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • is it a language you and DH speak at home?

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      11.07.09, 12:41 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • If it's so important for you culturally, why aren't you just speaking the other language at home so that he learns it organically? With my dcs, we've been speaking both languages (English and our "mother tongue") since they were born, and they are now fluent.

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      11.07.09, 12:51 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • I do and he speaks back in english. plus there is a social element that is very important. kids speaking "kid language" between themselves

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        11.07.09, 12:55 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • np: then don't answer. my kids are fluent in spanish entirely from a caregiver. it can be done but it is hard work and requires committment from you.

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          11.07.09, 12:56 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • OR here - Then it seems like he won't really pick up anything from his classes either - he clearly isn't motivated right now. Maybe he will be later, but it sounds to me like a waste of time. My parents forced 10 years of piano on me, and I hated it. Didn't enjoy it, never practiced, and wasn't able to retain anything after I left for college. I think perhaps if it was something I ACTUALLY WANTED to do, I would have put more effort in and continued with lessons (or at least would have retained some of what I learned).

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          11.07.09, 01:11 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • I think you are right. He would probably regret quitting it when he is older. Making sure that he learns the language well is a gift you are giving him--I bet he will appreciate it when he is older! Music lessons are often the same. I am so grateful to my mom for making me practice piano, though there were whole years when I hated it!

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      11.07.09, 12:52 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • I would look for another program. He has school all week and then has this so he really only has 1 day off a week. I would find a program that he will like, that is fun. Plus there are a ton of DVD/CD-ROM programs that teach kids language. You don't want him to hate it so much that he ends up resenting it or you for making him go.

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      11.07.09, 01:22 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • Can you hire a babysitter or housekeeper fluent in your first language - this may be an easier way to expose him to it. Also book- dvd combos are fun for them and he may view it as more fun.

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        11.07.09, 03:27 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • I honestly think you should let him quit. For a 7 y/o, it is really not fair to have less than even 1.5 days of a weekend. He may regret it when he's older, but you can ask him every year if he wants to re-enroll and one day he may surprise you by saying yes. My parents forced language school on me, I hated it, and seriously resented it for so long.

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      11.07.09, 03:33 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • Sometimes kids have to do things that they don't want to do. You should def be speaking it exclusively at home, though.

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      11.07.09, 03:35 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • This is tough. I had good intentions to speak to my DD exclusively in another language except DH does not speak it and he would have felt left out. I am an educator and a foreign language teacher told me that as kids grow up, they want to speak that language with other children not just with their parents and that exposing them to other people who speak the language is also important. I do think he may regret it down the line if he quits it now. Sometimes as parents we have to do what we think is best, not just what the kid wants.

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      11.07.09, 03:37 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • He'll regret it. In college one of the most popular classes was a Chinese class that was conducted in Mandarin but taught reading and writing Chinese. It is filled with kids who gave up learning Chinese as kids and now are rushing back to it.

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      11.07.09, 05:17 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • I have friends who went to Saturday language classes (Japanese) growing up and what helped them continue was making good friends in class. They continued going back because they wanted to see their friends.

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      11.07.09, 05:29 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • Do stick with it, but look for another program. If he hates it I wouldn't push this particular one on him, but find one more child-friendly for him.

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      11.07.09, 09:01 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • Oh, and to add, 4 hours is a long time on a Saturday for a seven year old. Perhaps less hours, with work at home to do with you and dh would be better.

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        11.07.09, 09:02 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • of course he hates it He goes to school every day during the week and then you make him basically go back to school on saturday. He gets one day to be a kid. I would find it torture. Sorry but that's my opinion. He should be playing on the weekend or doing a physical sport.

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      11.08.09, 04:44 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • Can you find a different class that is NOT 4 hours long? My dd is in a chinese class, but it is only 2 hours, and not at all like the hardcore classes that many other chinese classes I know of.

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      11.08.09, 10:29 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • We just moved from CA, originally Tokyo, and feel lucky to find LoveALot Preschool bc they offer Japanese classes up to 5 yrs.

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        11.21.09, 08:25 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • LEt me put it this way - I am very grateful that my parents let me have my weekends when I was growing up to be a kid and do what activities I wanted to do. If he wants to do sports, let the kid have childhood and do his sports. Don't force him in a stuffy language class for 4 hours, thus giving him a 6 day school week. If he wants to learn a language later, he'll do it, but childhood only comes once.

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      11.21.09, 09:22 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • make his stay, but give him some "deal" options. He goes to the class but then you do something else he really wants to do in exchange (take him to a movie, make his favorite dinner, etc)

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      11.21.09, 09:26 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • how about hiring a babysitter who will play / hang out with for a day / a few days a week?

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      11.21.09, 09:51 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
  • [-]how much breastmilk should I leave with my 5mo db for 24 hours?

    4 replies [ Reply | Watch | Options ]
    11.21.09, 09:09 AM [ Flag ]
    • do you think 30oz is enough? (I have a huge supply in the freezer, but don't want to thaw out too much, but want to make sure I leave enough...)

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      11.21.09, 09:29 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • someone can always take more out of the freezer if necessary, but I would overestimate what you think he eats. It's okay if some of it has to be tossed. You don't want to worry about this while you are gone

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      11.21.09, 09:33 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • I am dropping db with the ILs so I need to decide in advance.... I feel like I usually over estimate and end up tossing so much and since I ebf, I pump only once a day, so it takes me 2 days to make one bottle and it just kills me to see it get tossed.... but I would be too worried not to leave enough... maybe I will bring 40oz.. but is that way too much?

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        11.21.09, 09:38 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • I think your first estimiate of 30oz is probably fine, but agree that you don't want to worry about this. Really, it's better to waste some of it than to worry about this, so just do whatever is going to give you peace of mind.

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          11.21.09, 09:45 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
  • [-]Having first hot flashes. Thoughts on hormone replacement, anyone?

    6 replies [ Reply | Watch | Options ]
    11.21.09, 06:26 AM [ Flag ]
    • Don't. I think messing with one's hormones is a really bad idea, unless a.b.s.o.l.u.t.e.l.y necessary. My gut tells me it leads to many more health problems down the road. Menopause is a perfectly normal process...challenging at times (hot flashes, mood swings), but not a medical problem. Mind over matter, and lots of tank tops and open windows!

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      11.21.09, 06:44 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • I started taking dhea - in a week my hot flashes have stopped. I was waking up in a puddle and was getting no sleep. Look into it and ask a dr - it's over the counter

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      11.21.09, 09:02 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • had a hysterectomy at 35 and have been on HRT ever since. I take the lowest dose of premarin they make only every other day. Works fine for me, does away with all hot flashes, sleep disruptions, etc, and isn't enough of a dose to cause problems (the opinion of all docs I've seen). It's totally your call after discussing with your doc

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      11.21.09, 09:17 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • I'm going to give you a warning based on my df - she also had a hysto, was on an estrogen hrt for maybe ten years, developed later stage breast cancer when it was discovered, and she is dead now. Most drs. now also use hrt during the worst symptoms of menopause and then take pts. off. I wish you well.

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        11.21.09, 09:26 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • yes, there are always tragic examples of how this can go wrong - and I'm sorry about your friend. But there is a huge difference between going through menopause and retaining ovaries that continue to release a small amount of hormone for the rest of your life and losing those ovaries to surgery. I stay up with all the latest recommendations, but this is the right thing for me at the moment (which doesn't mean things won't change in the future)

          [ Reply | Options ]
          11.21.09, 09:30 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]

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