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Do you 'enjoy' spending time with your kids?
- Yes, most of the time we really have fun together
- Sometimes it's fun, sometimes it's really dull and aggravating
- Honestly most of the time it's not fun at all, but it's not supposed to be fun
- I really don't enjoy it at all, and wish I could spend less time with them
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What's up with people saying that a 2 month fetus is "not a living being"? Of course it is living. The reason it can be aborted is because it's not "viable" (which means it can't live on its own outside of the mother). But living it most certainly is. I'm pro-choice but I don't take abortion lightly and it really upsets me that the people making these decisions are so uninformed (and in a way that makes them able to take abortion more lightly than they should).
179 replies [ Reply | Watch | MoreNP: I have always been pro-choice. After having a DB I am a little more torn about the issue and certainly get upset that there are some people who take it lightly and have had more than one abortion. Just very sad. There is birth control and Plan B before even having to go the abortion route.
[ Reply | More ]ITA. I'm still pro-choice but wish people would take more precautions. I used a condom every time I had sex until I was ready for a child for this exact reason. I know people always say 'the condom broke', but I think that excuse is way overused. And like you said, nowadays Plan B should be taking care of that.
[ Reply | More ]I used a condom and it broke and I took the morning after pill and I still got pregnant. I was as responsible as I could be and I still got pregnant. And yes I had an abortion and no I do not regret it for one moment. And anyway, it doesn't matter: I got an abortion because I did not want to be pregnant and it really doesn't matter why I didn't want to be pregnant or why I wanted the abortion. It's my right to terminate a pregnancy regardless of someone else's morality about the situation.
[ Reply | More ]No one is trying to take away your right and most are saying they are pro-choice. All we are saying is that often it is done cavallierly (sp?). Obviously in your case you were not cavallier. If I was 16 and got pregnant (I was not having sex then but if I was) or had a 16 y.o. daughter who was pregnant, I would probably have gone the abortion route. If I was 32 and got pregnant with someone I had dated, I probably would have had it because I could handle it - wouldn't have enjoyed it but emotionally and financially I was responsible at that point.
[ Reply | More ]Agreed. Abortions should certainly be legal. Many are not as responsible as you are, though.
[ Reply | More ]But in the end, so? I want people to be responsible for themselves and their children but not everyone is going to be. That is just the way it is. And abortion should not just be for the responsible. It would be nice if no one got pregnant unless they wanted to be and if no one changed their mind once they were pregnant, but it doesn't work that way. The truth of the matter is that abortion is the last form of birth control in what should be a long line of options. But if all else fails, or nothing else was used, abortion is what stops women from having unwanted children. Talking about what "should" happen is a luxury of people who do not find themselves knocked up without wanting to be.
[ Reply | More ]My god, you are dense. NOBODY IS SAYING WE SHOULD TAKE AWAY YOUR RIGHT TO ABORTION. However, there are many people who do not use birth control responsibly or at all. I have a friend who had 2 abortions, and the second was completely ridiculous. She was 32 and just doesn't like condoms.
[ Reply | More ]But where does the argument you're putting forth lead? You are saying that your friend should not have had that "completely ridiculous" abortion. I am saying that if you are pro-choice you have to accept that some people will make choices that you don't like. So are you just pointing out that you don't think she should have had the second one? Um, okay. Then what?
[ Reply | More ]I'm saying that there are consequences to actions. She should have been more careful and aware that the potential to create life exists when you have unprotected sex. If she did not want the child, aborting was correct, but she is essentially using abortion as a form of birth control, which is repulsive.
[ Reply | More ]Says someone who believes "life begins at conception." others do not. this has nothing to do with whether using abortions as birth contorl is reprehensive.
[ Reply | More ]Science and the law do not say that "life" begins at 20 weeks. They say viability begins then. The question is not about life (there is no question in any intelligent person's mind that the fetus is alive). A rational debate (see roe v wade opinion) is whether viability should be what we look to.
[ Reply | More ]lol. your level of ignorance is insane. NO ONE (not the supreme court, not pro-choice activists, NO ONE) argues that the fetus is not alive or that the question of whether it is alive is SUBJECTIVE. it's 100% decided. it is alive. the thing to debate is whether a woman should be allowed to abort prior to the point at which the fetus could be born alive (i.e., is viable). You're literally arguing somethin akin to $1 is not necessarily worth the same as 100 pennies.
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Same here. And it bothers me that people are saying do what you need to do and don't look back. Or they look for ways that are not painful for them. That little baby/fetus undergoes massive pain when its mother chooses to abort it. And she presumably (excepting rape) chose to have sex (likely unprotected). And the baby pays for it with its life.
[ Reply | More ]I have had a couple of miscarriages and no, I don't think they were my babies. They were devastating losses but no, losing a fetus at five weeks and seven weeks is not the same as losing a baby.
[ Reply | More ]I don't think miscarriages are the same as an abortion because miscarriages happen because something is wrong with the baby and it's nature's taking over and they are out of your control.
[ Reply | More ]not all miscarriages are because something is wrong with the baby, could be something wrong with the mother too - as for your other comment that you do not think they are the same as an abortion, you are right they are different, but as a person who has had both a miscarriage and an abortion - I really did not see much difference
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I don't think there is much scientific evidence that first trimester fetus's can feel pain in the way we understand it. Especially in the beginning of the first trimester, they barely have a central nervous system, never mind an actual brain to process pain. It's not that people are making excuses. The reality is there is a difference between a fetus and a human being. They aren't the same. A pregnancy starts out as a one cell organism. Are you really suggesting that a one cell organism is the same as a whole human infant?
[ Reply | More ]By that logic, a 30 year old woman's life is way more valuable than a 2 day old baby's life.
[ Reply | More ]np - Isn't that what families need to weigh and judge in the cases of choosing between the mother's life and the fetus's life?
[ Reply | More ]No actually that is not the same logic. An infant and an adult are both fully formed humans. They can process information, have memories, have and express feelings, experience pain, and they have free will. An early fetus has none of these things! They are not the same. A one cell fertilized egg cannot see, hear, feel, understand, or otherwise function. It has no free will. It is not the same as a baby!
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Why is the pregnancy resulting from a rape any different from the pregnancy resulting from a night of unprotected consentual sex? Why should any woman, raped or not, have to pay with her life as she wanted it for an unwanted pregnancy? I understand that you think that an embryo is a human being, but not everyone does. You should not have an abortion, but that doesn't mean other women should not if that's what they need.
[ Reply | More ]Op: I didn't say whether I believe it's a human being (altho I do). I said its LIVING. See below. Ridiculously stupid people are actually continuing to debate that.
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Op: the pregnancy resulting from a rape is different because the pregnancy isn't a result of careless decisions on the woman's part. I'm a believer in living with the consequences of my own actions. That said I am pro-choice although, I would never have an abortion, rape or no rape.
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Well first of all, the point about pain is arguable, especially early in a woman's pregnancy. Second of all, SHAME ON YOU. How are women who have had miscarriages supposed to feel about this statement?
[ Reply | More ]It is true. It may not make women whove had miscarriages feel good, but its true. By analogy, dying of cancer is painful. should I not say that because I don't want o remind people who've lost loved ones to cancer? I'd love an honest educated debate. But the points you're making are not logical or good.
[ Reply | More ]Lol yeah it's like shame on you for saying something that even though it is true it could make a specific audience feel bad. Could you imagine if we all had to play by that rule. No one would be allowed to speak (without shame lol) because what they would say would surely make someone feel bad. Don't tell me you're a size 2 because it will make me feel bad about myself. Don't tell me you're hungry because there are ppl out there Jo are truly hungry. Etc.
[ Reply | More ]It's true for YOU. Jesus, you're thick headed. It's not some convenient lie that women convince themselves of.
[ Reply | More ]Actually, you don't love a good debate at all, because you hold fast to your belief and anyone who disagrees with you is either an idiot or cold. You fail to see that other people can have opposing POV about life, conception, cells, fetuses, and babies.
[ Reply | More ]You're not even responding o the actual points people are making so I don't think what you're doing even qualifies as a debate. You're wildly squawking. I'm going to move on to people who disagree with me but have something intelligent to say.
[ Reply | More ]Your entire point centers around whether a fetus is life. I don't believe it is. You can move on to people who agree with you, since that's all you're capable of.
[ Reply | More ]You don't agree that a fetus is living? You should alert the newspapers that the foundation of science AND law (Roe v Wade) is wrong. Even Roe v Wade (which gives women the right to have abortions) doesn't dispute that a fetus is alive. It's amazing to me that you can argue a point this stupid with such conviction. Living is a biological term. There's no way to dispute that a fetus (which grows) is living.
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I don't get it: you want abortion to be hugely regretted and painful? Why? Do you think it's an easy process for any woman (other than sociopaths that can't feel emotion)? And why should it be a painful operation? Fetal pain has not been actually proven, but until the fetus becomes a real live baby, I am more concerned about the real live woman's pain and feelings.
[ Reply | More ]np: Meh. A fetus has a tail. I don't feel like it's functioning at a different level than, say, a lizard, which also has a tail and probably has more of a brain stem. I don't think it matters much what it could be like someday. I'd rather see all children born to families who want them -- rather than more women dying from back-door abortions and a lot more unwanted children suffering poverty, neglect, and abuse. That's just the reality. Mexico -- where abortion is illegal -- has a higher abortion rate than we do in the U.S. If you want to stop abortion, then get poor women decent health services. If you make it illegal, you just end up with more women getting their insides torn up.
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np: it bothers me A LOT more how lightly people take having children. to me the consequences of that are terrible. consequences of abortion don't bother me so much.
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ITA. I get angry when I read posts on parenting websites like this: "So, like, my boyfriend and I moved in together and I got pregnant but now it turns out that he got another girl pregnant two months later and he says he wants to live with her and now I have a baby but I'm moving in with another guy who says he doesn't like babies. What should I do?" That bothers me a lot more than abortions.
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I think there are people that agree that it should be legal, but don't want it taken so lightly either. I just had a conversation with someone who took her friend for a legal abortion decades ago. The friend called her up to thank her this past week, for being supportive. She's gone on to have a family when the time was right for her (financially, emotionally etc), but the abortion is still always there for her. I understand that's just one person, but having an abortion doesn't mean it's over and done. Clearly for this person it's been in her mind for decades.
[ Reply | More ]I don't think people making the distinction takes abortion lightly. What makes a "living thing" highly subjective, especially in the first trimester.
[ Reply | More ]No - this is the point. Living is not highly subjective. It's clear what is and is not living. In fact, in order for the debate to be about whether the fetus is viable (and that is what the scientific an legal debate is about) the thing has to be living. Viable = can it live on its own. There would be no disussion about viability if it weren't living. There is absolutely no debate about whether a fetus is living. You're wildly misinformed.
[ Reply | More ]A slug is a living thing. Is his life valued as much as a bird, a cat, a human? To many people, a fetus is a bunch of cells and NOT a real life baby. People who feel this way are not wildly misinformed or cold and callous. It is not highly subjective to YOU, but it is to other people.
[ Reply | More ]Is a tumor 'living'? And please, don't debase this debate by accusing me of saying a fetus is a tumor. People have different definitions on this issue, that is all.
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I agree that being pro-choice does not mean you take this lightly. What's subjective is not the issue of being alive. It is clearly a living organism. The subjective part what entitles a living organism to the same rights as it's mother? Is it simply being alive? Is it viability? How do you define viability? Etc. These are the subjective things.
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The fact that the fetus is living, which of course it is, is completely beside the point. What matters is viability, and what status the living fetus gets compared to the liberties and personal choice of the woman carrying that fetus.
[ Reply | More ]I used to agree with this completely, but am now a bit unsure. Viability changes with technology. Younger and younger babies are surviving thanks to medical advances. The only absolute is that it is living. I understand the situation many are put in when facing an unwanted pregnancy, but I question if that makes it their "right" to abort. People are also put in bad situations when their child is born with severe health problems, or develops major problems as the result of a car accident, fall, etc. I don't think they have a right to be free from that responsibility! I know it's not a perfect analogy, but the similarities are part of why I now question my stance on abortion.
[ Reply | More ]A baby born at 24 weeks is not going to necessarily have the best life. Not that we shouldn't try to give that baby born at 24 weeks the best chance at a normal healthy life, but that's not really the point. The woman's life should be more important than the fetus's life because a woman is more than a vessel for life. Once a baby is born, it is a person and has the right to all of the rights human beings enjoy. But before birth, it is not the same as a woman, even the one it grow inside/
[ Reply | More ]If by her life you mean her physical health, sure. I agree that a woman's physical health should take priority. But quality of life is subjective, and hypothetical. Not an ideal standard to go on at all.
[ Reply | More ]Part of life is deciding when to have a child. It doesn't always work out as we had planned, but if you can't get pregnant you can go the IVF route and if you don't want to be pregnant you can go the abortion route. It is not hypothetical that no woman should be forced to have or not have a baby. Everyone can have an opinion, but no one should force that down the throat of anyone else.
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honey, it is a clump of cells no matter what fantasyland sentiment you want to attach to it
[ Reply | More ]I am 100% pro-choice til <13-14 weeks of pregnancy. after that, only if medically necessary or in rape cases. At 11 weeks, CVS can tell you most of what you need to go ahead and make a decision. If a law comes to modify the 20 something weeks in NY, I will vote for it, it's too much
[ Reply | More ]But a fetus is not living, or capable of living, at 2 months. I had a first trimester miscarriage. I saw what came out. It wasn't living. I was devastated and mourned, but I was not mourning a living baby; I was mourning that those cells didn't develop into the baby we so desperately wanted. If I had had an abortion at the same time in pregnancy, the same blood and cells would have come out, not a living being. I cannot imagine opening a door to regressing women backwards to a time when abortion was illegal. If you don't want to have an abortion, don't have one, but don't dictate to anyone else what she "should" be doing. I agree that the line needs to be drawn once the fetus is viable, by the way, and that only medically indicated abortions should be legal at that point, with more stipulations as well but I need to go, will check back later.
[ Reply | More ]Op: A fetus is living. Unequivocally. You posters are proving my point that women are misinformed about abortion. The reason women have a right to choose is because the fetus is not VIABLE before a certain point. Viable in the case of a fetus means not able to continue to live outside of the mother.
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Your argument is that Roe V Wade says a fetus at 2 months is not viable. That is correct. However, it is not living to me and a lot of other people.
[ Reply | More ]There would be no debate about viability if the fetus were not alive!!!!!!!! Every informed person, pro life or pro choice understands that it's living. If they didn't think that, they wouldn't be talking about viability. It's not a matter of opinion. You're arguing something as dumb as the sky is not blue.
[ Reply | More ]You keep throwing this word around "informed." Are you of the opinion that I am uninformed because I don't believe some cells are not living? If so, there is no use in arguing with a right wing asswipe.
[ Reply | More ]np: Liberal democrat here. Are you actually suggesting that the cells are no alive? That is just nonsense.
[ Reply | More ]OP: YES, they are arguing that the fetus is not alive and that the definition of alive is subjective. I'm also a liberal democrat and I'm pro-choice, but I can't deal with hearing this nonsense. The entire premise of Roe v. Wade is that abortion is OK while the fetus is incapable of being born alive. Thus, it is alive and the issue is whether it can be born alive. If it can't be born alive, abortion must be permitted. If it can be born alive, abortion may be prohibited. These people are unbelievably misinformed and they're sticking to it.
[ Reply | More ]Actually, I think they're arguing that a fetus is alive in that a sperm, tumor, or toenails are alive. You seek the make the distinction. That makes you stubborn and misinformed.
[ Reply | More ]OP: I have no idea what your post intends to say, but read my post. I say that a fetus is alive and women should be smarter on the topic of abortion than they clearly are. There are people on this board who are arguing that it's a matter of opinion. People were arguing it last night on a different board. Feel free next time to read all the words before telling someone what's what.
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If you bothered to care what others are saying, there are plenty of people who are saying that a fetus is not living. Is an egg living? Sperm? Egg sac? Tumor? Fetus with no heartbeat? No brain formution? It's actually not a simple matter.
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OMG people stop being so STUPID. A fetus is ALIVE. The OP is not saying that abortion should be illegal. Indeed, she is pro-choice. She is saying that women should be educated about this issue and that many are not (many more than I'd have guessed, based on the insanity going on here). A fetus is ALIVE. That is incontravertible. No scientist and even no knowledgable pro-choice advocate would argue that a fetus is not alive. You people need to do some learning before you speak on this issue.
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OP: It means that people who say that they feel ok about abortion because it's not even alive are misinformed. That's all it means to me. Before a woman has an abortion, she might want to know what's going on and the people last night talking about their prior abortions clearly don't have the first clue. i think of this as a problem. i've never had an abortion and i know more about abortion than women who have had them. i found that disturbing.
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How does a woman who has 12 abortions affect your life? How does that same woman who has three kids with no partner affect your life? Sure a fetus is "living" but you want some sort of shame involved in abortion so you trout out the "living" argument. It's really NONE of your business why someone wants/needs an abortion. Get that through your head. I have had an abortion and I don't feel shame. I feel relief that I was smart enough to make the right choice. As other said, what came out of me wasn't a baby. It was a potential baby in a very early stage of it's "life"
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