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HELP! Married to non-practicing Jew. He and his immediate family have always celebrated CHristmas. In recent years, dh has become more religious and has pronounced that he no longer wants to celebrate Christmas, doesn't want me or our kids to celebrate and doesn't want us to go to family's home for Chirstmas (my family is nondenominational and xmas isn't about jesus to us, just a family holiday without religious undertones. dh announced tonight that he refuses to go to my family and doesn't want me and dcs to go either.
55 replies [ Reply | Watch | Options ]op: i'm breastfeeding so no matter what the baby must be with me. i want all of us, including dh to be together. i have agreed going forward to raise kids in his faith but want one last year with my family traditions.
[ Reply | Options ]I think the fact that he thinks by attending your family's house he's somehow rejecting his own beliefs. That's sort of a stretch and frankly, the mark of a man of immature faith. I am a devout Christian but went to temple with friend on high holy days. Is he afraid their Christianity is going to rub off on him or what??
[ Reply | Options ]op: good point about the immature faith and what is he afraid of. is it insulting for me to say that though?
[ Reply | Options ]I might not use the word immature but I think it's helpful for you to realize that's what his faith is. He sounds very threatened by the idea of Christmas with your family. And the fact you said this might be your last there, that sounds very fast. Faith should be about love and support and fellowship, not isolation. He also sounds somewhat controlling. I would ask him what he's afraid of and see what he says. GL.
[ Reply | Options ]Rather then immature I think it's more like developing. He can't expect you to be in lockstep with his process all along the way. He is finding his footing so he is reaching for things that could derail him and I guess his feelings now about his dcs. This is the reason why I am against Jews having xmas trees at all no matter what level the devotion. It just confuses the issue of faiths. That said, I think that he should go to your family's house with your whole family. After all, you entered into a two religion household when you got married and he can't just deny that now. But it's obviously something that is going to come up throughout the year so it needs to be dealt with but I don't think that it should be an all or nothing conversation right from the start.
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np: curious digression, or, if you are a devout christian, does that mean you observe sabbath and all the food restrictions. my brother went through a born-again christian phase and he said according to the bible, sabbath is sundown fri-sundown sat like jews, couldn't eat pork, shellfish, or fish without scales and no celebrating christmas as it is a pagan holiday.
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Your dh's increasing religious participation seems like something you two need to seriously discuss.
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what if you are presenting it as just a family get together like Thanksgiving - it just happens to be when kids are out of school and you can take off from work so it is reasonable and convenient, nothing to do with going to church.
[ Reply | Options ]tried that, but he objects to even gathering around a xmas tree, going to "christmas eve" party and having "christmas dinner." even though my family isn't religious, he thinks it is a smack to his jewish faith to celebrate xmas.
[ Reply | Options ]Ok, he sounds really defensive and threatened....and sad actually. I feel sorry for him. Try to talk to him and see what this is really about. Someone else's Christmas tree is not a smack to his Jewish faith. That's just a fact. Try to help him figure out why he understands it that way.
[ Reply | Options ]op: i do think there are other things at play here. one being that i am a big personality and also the primary breadwinner. i think some of his actions are about taking more control in our relationship. for that reason i give in sometimes, just to let him feel like he has control over something, but jeez, it's christmas and family, how can he be against that?
[ Reply | Options ]He can't. Trying to restrict your movements and restrict your access to family on a holiday is kind of frightening, if you ask me. And it's common for this kind of controlling behavior to come from insecure men. Try to address the issue head on with him instead of letting him make this about Christmas, which it's not.
[ Reply | Options ]it really is about religion though, even though control in the relationship is also at play, this wouldn't even be coming up if not for his newly observant religious beliefs. as for tackling the power dynamic head on...yeesh, i'm not sure i'm ready for that, or if it would be helpful or worth it question his "manhood"
[ Reply | Options ]Well, if you don't want to make changes, you'll need to learn how to accept he status quo. It's one or the other. I think saying to him "what's this really about? Seems like a control issue to me, rather than being about Christmas" isn't that scary or aggressive. But then again, the fact you don't want to address this head in isn't surprising since domineering controlling men typically seek out compliant, subservient women. I wish you the best and think you should deal with this now, before it gets worse and your children see him treating you this way, restricting your access to your family, your practice of your faith, etc.
[ Reply | Options ]op:you have clearly misread my posts. i'm the big personality breadwinner that makes the majority of the decisions in our marriage/household (finance,travel,events), definitely not the subservient one. hence i think his newly found religious observance is also a power play for him to control something in our relationship. we spend a lot of time with my family and i'm not religious so he's not restricting my faith. the main issue here is depriving me &dcs of visiting my fam for traditional xmas.
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My parents were Catholic and Jewish. We were raised Catholic but went to my grandmother's house for New Year's and Passover. We went to be with her and to know about my father's upbringing. There is room in a family for many ways to worship or even just celebrate in a non religious way. I think his intolerance is scary.
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I think it's wonderful that he is becoming more drawn towards Judaism; however, he will have to realize that going to your parent's home which like you say doesn't have religion incorporated into the family get together, is OK. He can still be Jewish and becoming more and more religious and still participate in a family dinner for the holiday of Christmas.
[ Reply | Options ]Your DH sounds like me. I have become more observant lately and we're not keeping a tree this year for the first time, but I am not forbidding my DH from visiting family. We're all going over on xmas day.
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op: well you are a reasonable person, and right now i wish i was married to you! my dh wants us all to be together, but wants to forbid me from going to family (out of town) and/or taking the kids. this is completely unacceptable to be, especially since i agreed to raise dcs jewish going forward. now i want to renege on that bc he's being such an intractable jerk. what should i do? the anxiety is killing me.
[ Reply | Options ]Talk to his rabbi. Obviously if his dcs are going to be living in NYC they are going to be exposed to friends as well as family that are not jewish, he is going to have to learn, with you, a method of balancing his desire for following a stricter jewish faith and still living in this world.
[ Reply | Options ]??? religious jewish mom here. Do you really think ANY rabbi is going to enforce this? gonna tell one of his congregants, "listen, you have to make your wife happy and celebrate christmas, this is a diverse city you live in, and you have to balance your desire for religiosity with the multiple religions in NYC?"??? You have got to be kidding me! I do kinda agree with others posters - he was non practicing and unafilliated when they got married - for him to suddenly change and do a 180 and NOW say xmas is unacceptable etc - is kindof unfair. but asking his rabbi for help is just...well really dumb and counterproductive.
[ Reply | Options ]np: I think many rabbis would say that going to a relative's home to celebrate Christmas with them does not conflict with your own beliefs. I happen to think that Jews shouldn't have Christmas trees and other celebrations of Christmas in their homes, but should only celebrate Chanukah there, but I have no issues with going to in-laws with family and celebrating Christmas there because I make it clear to dcs that we are Jewish and celebrate Chanukah in our home, but can enjoy in-laws Christmas with them.
[ Reply | Options ]Speaking to a rabbi isn't dumb. What is wrong with you? Speak to a reform rabbi - whom I am assuming he must be seeing since neither Orthodox nor Conservative rabbis are really keen on interfaith marriages. A reform rabbi will be able to mitigate the holiday season for him and you.
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Obviously, you two must sit down and calmly discuss this. It is acceptable to bring up your dc Jewish and to only celebrate jewish holidays in your home. However, you do have an extended family, and they are an important part of your life. You can explain to your dc about different religions. And you should ALL visit for holidays. You are a FAMILY. You belong together!
[ Reply | Options ]Many Jewish people are as "culturally" as "religiously" Jewish. You may want to dispassionately explain again, as you have, that Christmas is for your family a 'cultural' celebration. That it's another opportunity to have something great to look forward to and share as a family. I am Jewish, fairly conservative "religiously" but we love to help decorate our friends tree and would love to be invited to celebrate with them.
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I would just tell him that nothing has changed, your family is nondenominational, and that you celebrate Christmas. Tell him there is no reason for him to come if he doesn't want to, and that you understand. But that you already have made plans to spend Christmas with your family and you won't be canceling now. We (DH and I) are Catholic and Jewish, and we take turns visiting our respective families and doing Christmas/Hannukah. When the kids get old enough, they can decide which religion they want to practice.
[ Reply | Options ]OP: I want to spend the holidays with my dh, dcs, my family and his at my family's home out of town, as we have done for several years. It is a 3+ hour drive and we usually stay for a few days to catch up with everyone, my siblings, cousins, friends (his friends too as he went to college in Boston where I'm from.) Am I supposed to just take the kids and leave for christmas without him?
[ Reply | Options ]If he is being unreasonable :( You may not get exactly what you want. And if you do get him to go, will he just ruin everyone else's Christmas? I understand that splitting up for Christmas is not anyone's idea of a good time, but if you set a precedent for letting him control you and your family's celebrations, I think you have to expect more of the same every year.
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op: this morning is the first time in 6 years of marriage that dh has left for work without kissing me goodbye or even telling me he was leaving. and i slept on the couch (although it's not really that unusual since i'm nursing, but i usually get into bed with him after the 3am feeding). this is a mess.
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I'm the one responding above telling you to address this with husband head on. I am so sorry that things are getting worse so rapidly. He is punishing you with this behavior. Withholding affection is another sign of emotional abuse. I am really sorry you are dealing with this. Is there a male friend of his who you could talk to and ask to speak with him?
[ Reply | Options ]I'm considering talking to his mom or brother about this. we will be with his family for thanksgiving and i'm sure they will be asking/confirming our/their christmas plans.
[ Reply | Options ]that can be a double-edged sword if his new observance is separate from his own family. Before you talk to them, you have to know a few things for sure (a) does he look down on the lack of observance of his own family?; (b) are they 100% comfortable with your intermarriage?; (c) will he just be mad that you went behind his back to discuss your problem with his family?
[ Reply | Options ]Op: I am hesitant but considering speaking to his mom. His fam is entirely comfortable with our interfaith marriage as he was raised non-observant & his family continues to be. now that he is observant, he mY look down on their lack of observance but I'm not sure. I do worry it is wrong to go behind his back & speak to his mom but I have no one else to talk to that he might listen to.
[ Reply | Options ]Well, if you really think this is your last option to get to him. I'm very sorry that you're having to live with such a negative portrayal of Jewish observance. Do think about this though: if you take your DCs to your parents', it will ruin this Christmas, but it might also show him how wrong he's being if he has to miss out on all of it as well. In other words, lose this year's battle to win the war.
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He really shouldn't be forbidding you from visiting your family on Christmas. That's controlling. If you're not on the same page about religion, that's an issue you will ned to work through, but I know plenty of practicing Jews with gentile IL's (when one spouse converted) who at least allow IL's to see dc's on Christmas and give them presents, even if nothing happens within the Jewish household.
[ Reply | Options ]This is tricky. Talking to his rabbi might help, it will also help to know who is part of his newly found Jewish community. There are as many opinions on observance and the definition of Judaism as there are Jews, and this goes beyond the traditional four prongs of Judaism (Reconstructionist, Reform, Conservative, Orthodox.) I converted Orthodox, and my Rabbi is a very well-respected Orthodox rabbi who understands the problems related with mixed families. No one in my community would have said "don't go to your parents for Christmas". A big tenet of Judaism is respect for one's parents. However, to give you an example, another friend converted, and in her process, they had classes, one of which was on Christmas Day. The would-be converts were told they'd better show up to class, despite Christmas, or there would be consequences. So your DH might be learning from people who aren't tolerant of the issues that an interfaith marriage brings and are advising him that the only way to show his true faith is by renouncing your Christmas. He needs in that case to understand that this isn't an absolute truth, it's a few people's opinions and it's open to interpretation. I think that many Jews who have never been confronted to any other view than the one they've always been presented with have a hard time understanding that there isn't One Jewish Way.
[ Reply | Options ]his stance is bullshit...i think it's totally reasonable for you to present it this way: The kids and I are going to my parents (or wherever) for Christmas. I'm really looking forward to this traditional time with my family. I'm not going to make you come, but I will be very disappointed if you choose not to be part of our family for this.
[ Reply | Options ]So you've agreed to raise DCs jewish going forward? It sounds to me like you and your DH have very different expectations about what this means as a practical matter. He seems to think it means you all will do your own thing as a family on Christmas; you seem to think it means DCs keep celebrating Christmas. To give your DH the benefit of the doubt (although he does sound inflexible) maybe he wants to set a clear message for the kids. If they're Jewish now, that could mean they go to the movies, have nuclear family time on Christmas -- to make it clear to them it's not their holiday. Not saying this is how it needs to be, it just sounds like this is DH's expectation since the DCs will be raised as Jews.
[ Reply | Options ]op: i think you are right about what he wants in terms of our own family traditions but he also expects that if our parents,siblings want to see us during that time of year they must forgo their traditions to be with us and their grandkids. also i think that raising this a month before xmas is completely unfair. so if i want to see my parents, siblings, nieces, nephews then my parents should cancel xmas dinner, my sis should forgo their xmas eve party &everyone, or at least my parents, should come to nyc & not celebrate. that is unreasonable.
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