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I'm a PS 87 parent and belong to the PS 87 Yahoo group. I was annoyed this morning when I read a post by an out-of-cachement (OOC) parent trying to rally other OOC parents to make sure that their younger kids will be able to attend PS 87. The OOC kids are a big part of the overcrowding problem at PS 87! How can these parents complain about overcrowding when they are part of the problem? I don't have any more kids I'm trying to get into PS 87, but I have a friend who lives in the cachement and wants to get her kids into K next year. Because of the uncertainty over whether in-cachement kids can get in, she is also applying to private schools as a back-up. How is it fair that OOC siblings get in and displace in-cachement kids???
105 replies [ Reply | Watch | Options ]saw the same e-mail and was equally appalled. esp bc the signer had a 2nd grader. so she lived in the catchment for 5 minutes and now wants preference for younger dcs? give me break.
[ Reply | Options ]op here: I thought about responding on the Yahoo site, but I don't want to get torn apart by all the OOC parents.
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I won't. But the problem is that they are well-organized and plan to mobilize, while everyone else is afraid to argue against what they want. So we have to count on the DOE doing what's best for the school.
[ Reply | Options ]i know. it is unfortunate that the doe permits this policy, which encourages overcrowding. maybe we can write privately to the decision-makers?
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np. the doe will not change their policy on this no matter how much the parents agitate. sibs living in the catchment are given priority, followed by non-sibs in the catchment, followed by sibs out of the catchment, followed by non-sibs out of the catchment.
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PS 87 was running a big ponzi scheme that was going to eventually collapse. Now the question is what to do about it and who will suffer.
[ Reply | Options ]ita. This is exactly why we chose to give private a shot last year even though we were in 87 zone. I'd been hearing too much playground chatter and also knew one of the OOC moms & figured nothing good was coming from that obsession. I'm so happy that dc got FA at a great school & I don't have to deal with that nightmare.
[ Reply | Options ]so you live in a great zone, you still qualify for fa (rent-controlled apt.?) to a great private and you want to rub everyone's face in it. blech.
[ Reply | Options ]I wasn't trying to rub anyone's face in it, I was just sharing my experience & feelings. I'm truly sorry for the in-catchment kids who'll lose a spot at their neighborhood school because of this, which is exactly why we tried for private. It doesn't mean I can't be relieved. If dc hadn't gotten a good deal we'd be right there in the mess.
[ Reply | Options ]op here: honestly, it's not that bad once you're in the school. There are 9 K classes, yet the school still feels like a small community with nurturing teachers. I love it, ds is really happy there, and I'm thrilled that we're getting it for free.
[ Reply | Options ]i posted above as well, we are in K and love it too. only 21 kids in the class, dd is very happy. didn't try for private and have no intention of doing so in the immediate future. just annoyed with all the wink-wink OOC families shoe-horning younger dcs into a crowded school. most never really lived in catchment to begin with. it is the oldest trick at the DOE, and they should change the rule to, if you move, either all kids switch to new zoned school, or at least younger dcs have no claim to old zoned school which they never attended to begin with.
[ Reply | Options ]my ds also has 21 in his class. Wonder if it's the same class? ITA that they should change the rule and say that you have to switch schools if you move, or your younger kids can't enroll. The current system is a bad set-up for schools like 87. People either fake their addresses to get in (I think there's one in my ds's class), or they live in cachement until their dc is enrolled and then move out to a cheaper nabe. I know someone in the latter category. It's bad news for 87. I saw on stat on here recently that 50% of PS 87 kids are OOC. Crazy.
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or: aaaargh. Jealousy is very unattractive, even on an anon board. I just explained above why I chimed in.
[ Reply | Options ]believe me, I'm not jealous. You just sounded really smarmy in your initial post. Like, I saw this coming and I was right.
[ Reply | Options ]whatever. I *was* right. And I don't believe for a second that you're not jealous. If you want to be mad that some people get a break once in a while then that's your problem. I am empathetic & was trying to be supportive in my own apparently smarmy way. Here, maybe this'll make you feel better: now I have to figure out how to deal with the haves and have-nots in my dc's private (since we're obviously the have-nots). I have my own problems.
[ Reply | Options ]omg, you are too funny and too full of yourself. You can't just accept that it's your attitude that's so annoying, not the fact that we're "jealous." I feel like we got the most amazing break, having our ds in PS87. It's a terrific school, the teachers are amazing, it's free (aside from taxes and school donations), and the families are all down-to-earth and normal and we don't have to deal with haves vs. have-nots. So you can gloat all you want in your deluded way. I'm just happy that you're not at PS87.
[ Reply | Options ]Yes, from the tone of this post and the dozens of conversations I've been involved in it sounds like a lovely environment where ALL of the parents are d-t-e and normal. Not to mention delusional.
[ Reply | Options ]and you are delusional if you think the other private school parents aren't talking about your charity case family behind your back. have fun there!
[ Reply | Options ]I'm not denying that a problem exists at 87. I was just taking issue with your attitude and your assumption that anyone who says anything negative about you must be jealous. I am definitely NOT jealous of your situation. I wouldn't send my ds to a private school on FA and have him feel poor compared with the others. And, believe me, your ds will notice eventually, if he hasn't already.
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I'm sure there are families with more money than others, but it's not as prevalent as in private schools. Even my ds's private preschool was filled with rich families with huge apts or townhouses. My ds started asking me if we could have a weekend home, a separate playroom, etc., after having friends with them. I'm glad he's no longer in that environment.
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In-catchment siblings trump out-of-catchment siblings trump in-catchment kids trump out-of-catchment kids. It's a good policy. End of story.
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Well then, people with younger kids should stay in or move back to the cachement. It's as simple as that.
[ Reply | Options ]What if you cannot afford to move back into the district? You now want me to pull out my child? Or send the other children to another school? How do you imagine those logistics? It's not like out-of-catchment kids take up so many seats that it becomes a problem. Geez.
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How many out-of-zone siblings are at PS87 per year? For starters the older sib is in a higher grade because PS87 does not really have space to accept out-of-zone first borns anymore. That means the whole siblings preference is a non-issue in a couple of years.
[ Reply | Options ]no, it can drag on for years. And in the meantime, in-cachement non-sibs are potentially displaced. What do you suggest in-cachement parents should do in that case?
[ Reply | Options ]They may be eligible for a bus. Or you just suck it up and walk that extra 5-10 blocks instead. It's not like your child is sent to a school across the park or on the other side of town.
[ Reply | Options ]oh, you're really something else. In-cachement kids get bused out so that OOC families can keep their "quality of life"?
[ Reply | Options ]So you think families in the neighborhood should "suck it up" so that families who don't live in the neighborhood can enjoy better quality of life? That is not going to happen.
[ Reply | Options ]My son goes to private. I just think that your idea about what is fair is crazy. It's true--we all have to carry the burden somehow. You were lucky one of your children got to go to a great school. Now you are not so lucky. That's life--but you've got to realize that you don't have the same claim on the school as the people who live IN THE ZONE. As per DOE regulations.
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you never could afford to live there in the first place and you knew it when you enrolled your first dc. yes, pull dcs out and go to new school or split dcs up. the logistics are dealt with by tons of families everywhere, with diferent dcs in hunter/G&Ts/gen ed/MS. and at one-third to one-half OOC, it is a terrible problem.
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that's not true. it's ic sibs, followed by ic non-sibs, then oc sibs, then oc non-sibs. here's a link to doe website. http://schools.nyc.gov/ChoicesEnrollment/Elementary/default.htm
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The in catchment parents need to mobilize. Our local school, PS 183 has a policy that out of catchment sibs are not guaranteed the right to attend the school. Period. Kids who are in the zone have first priority whether they have a sib in the school or not.
[ Reply | Options ]OOC parents in PS 87 are such a large and vocal contingent, though. A lot of them are, to their credit, very active in the school. It would be very difficult for in-cachement parents with kids currently at PS 87 to oppose them. It would have to be in-cachement parents with kids who are not yet in the school who have to mobilize. But they are not as well-organized as the OOC parents already in the school since there is no easy network, i.e. the PS 87 Yahoo group, for them.
[ Reply | Options ]ita, the emails going around on the yahoo group are fast and furious. everyone OOC is worried and many of the responders have very young older children (1st or 2nd grade). so it's pretty clear they either never lived in catchment, or lived there very briefly, if they are already OOC.
[ Reply | Options ]Well of course they're worried! The DOE's policy will exclude them! THey are trying to change the policy, the policy which gives zoned kids first rights over out of zone sibs. They won't change that policy. THey're up against it. The best they can hope for are trailers or something, to accommodate the extra kids that the school can't fit.
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sigh. it's not your school that has the policy it is a doe policy that is enforced at every school in the city. out of catchment families at 87 with younger sibs are sol next year.
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Isn't the real problem that "good" zoned schools are in short supply? If other schools were perceived to be good, you wouldn't have out-of-catchment kids or so many families moving to the PS87 zone. Seems to me that both groups (in-catchment and OOC at 87) feel entitled to something that all of us should have.
[ Reply | Options ]I think this is true. I'll bet many of the ooc families are in the northern part of district 3 or district 5. For many years, families have opted to go to 87 and not build up their own zone schools. Now good schools are in short supply. If they have thought long term and not taken the easy way out, there would be not just a school, but a community for their children. It may be time to pay the piper.
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My friends cheated their way into PS 87 - used the address from an older couple they know. Seemed pretty easy, probably lots of people do it.
[ Reply | Options ]and now they are allegedly OOC and whining and complaining. a dime a dozen, unfortunately.
[ Reply | Options ]If it's any consolation, we get the worst of all worlds on this one. We were zoned for 199, and live about 50 meters from the school. In the last shake-up, we got re-zoned for 87. Naturally, our older dc doesn't go to 87, and the younger dc, who is 2, therefore doesn't have an older sibling at 87. So in two years it will be two kids, two schools, no older sibling clout at either? Give me a break.
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I have no investment whatsoever in PS87, my kids don't go there and never will. But I will say that every OOC family I know there got in through the lottery. And at the time they got spots there (these are 2nd grade and up), there was no issue about ALL sibs having placement there, so the understanding was once you were in, you were in. Blame can be spread all over the place, but the DOE had a legitimate lottery through which many of these families were admitted, and are now active parts of the school community. They are not crazy for having assumed that their younger sibs would of course have spots at the school as well. I can see both sides of it, but don't make it sound like these people are just a bunch of loony liars!
[ Reply | Options ]Thanks for adding sanity to this conversation. There's a long history associated with why 87 took in so many OOC children in the past, and the kids there now in 2nd grade and up mainly got in through a lottery. 87 had lots of space for a long time.
[ Reply | Options ]The lottery isn't that old. Only some 1st, 2nd and 3rd graders got in through the district 3 lottery and a portion of those were siblings. One year, and only one year, the lottery took in around 60 kids (some siblings) that still was less than half of 'in zone' kids. Many of those kids opted for private and g&t. That doesn't account for 1000 kids which is causing the overcrowding.
[ Reply | Options ]Even when 87 had spots to offer through the D3 lottery, preference was given to OOC sibs. As I recall, there were 2 yrs w/ 60 OOC seats (those kids would be in 2nd and 3rd grade now). Don't know what the deal was w/ current first graders, there were no seats offered in the lottery last year. Before the district wide lottery, 87 took lots of OOC kids because they had lots of seats -- it's a wealthy neighborhood and many families opted for privates. Now, there are more kids and/or families have less money, in-zone families want to go to the school, and the OOC kids in the school now have sibs. The history is that the school was underutilized by in zone families for many years.
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