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Mean girl stuff starts early. At Kindergarten, already girls start having problems.
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It's nice to have boys in the class when this happens. They break up tension and some girls who are left out do play well with the boys. Also, the boys who don't play with other boys play well with girls.
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I've heard this at some friend's schools, but thankfully not at ours. I know the school actively promotes respect, etc too.
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Ehh, not necessarily, but yeah--frankly I've never seen that the "culture" of the school has a huge impact. The nicest school I've ever known had some wicked mean girls--they just took it "underground" essentially.. But I do think individual teachers/principals can have an impact on situations.
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can someone give an example (non-identifying of course)? i'm curious what this translates to in K. dd starting in fall and hoping to avoid this.
[ Reply | Options ]The whole "You can't sit with us... I'm not your friend... I only like Olivia" stuff. Mostly exclusion and competition about friendship. It's amazing. As soon as they turn 5 it seems to surface.
[ Reply | Options ]The funny thing is that a LOT of moms seem to cluelessly support it by finding their dd a best friend, and then really nurturing that relationship to it's maximum. I understand the advantages of your child having one best friend (confidence primarily,) but it ALWAYS leads to exclusion and/or jealousy sooner or later. I find that the moms who have one best friend, also encourage their daughters to have a single best friend.
[ Reply | Options ]You are so right. I'm amazed at women I know who push certain friends on their kids because they are good friends with their mommies. I like to see which kids my DDs gravitate toward on their own and always try to encourage them to be inclusive of all the children in a playgroup setting. Just because I'm good friends with someone doesn't necessarily mean our children have to be best friends. I too have noticed that the daughters of the moms like this already at age 3 can be exclusive and territorial in their interactions with other girls.
[ Reply | Options ]some kids just naturally gravitate toward a best friend. I have one like this. nothing I am doing to create this.
[ Reply | Options ]I have one dd who is like this also, but I do go out of my way to make sure she has as frequent playdates with other kids.
[ Reply | Options ]frankly, I don't have the time to do this. dc has very few playdates as it is. But this idea that the moms are actively plotting to create best friends only situations for their dcs is just nonsense to me. some kids have only 1-2 friends.
[ Reply | Options ]I agree some kids only have 1-2 friends, but among those, the "best-friend" seekers really stand out, imo. Those mothers really work at it.
[ Reply | Options ]no. my dcs has 1-2 best friends, with one being closer. I had nothing to do with it, and would like her to expand her friend group. but she is somewhat shy and has a best friend. seems even the outgoing girls have a bf. never occurred to me once that the mothers were manipulating this since I am not. maybe those who believe this are just threatened and projecting?
[ Reply | Options ]are you really close with your dcs friends parents? socialize on weekends, etc.?
[ Reply | Options ]I am not at all close with them. my dc chooses her own best friends. she seems to do this naturally, as do many kids I ahve observed. I don't like it because I think it is unstable socially to depend that much on one person. nonetheless, it seems to be her preference. I have not created this in any way.
[ Reply | Options ]I don't assume that you did create these friendships, but many mothers do, and many mothers relish them in a way that you do not. It does provide security and confidence for young girls. But everything has its ups and downs, and the downside is exclusion of others, and dependence on that one person, and eventually (when one child moves on) jealousy.
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They totally work at it. Maybe it is safety in numbers? I have seen moms suck up to the social leading lights' kids. It is truly something.
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I have been specifically warned by moms with older children NOT to push your kid to be best friends with your own friends' kids. Because there will come a point in time when one child will no longer want to hang out with the other, and it can be awkward, embarrassing, and painful.
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I know of one mom who arranged playdates with three of girls in the class with her dd on a regular basis every week. There were only 7 girls in the preschool class, so 3 of the 7 were excluded from the regular playdates. I wouldn't have cared much, except my dd kept asking for playdates with her dd, and she refused.
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Boys do this too -- not limited to girls. There's a boy in the preschool of my ds who was the "decider", telling some kids that they could play and other kids that they can't play with the group.
[ Reply | Options ]Yes, but in general boys are far more physical and fight things out instead of this meanness.
[ Reply | Options ]i've found the worst boys in ds's class are mean boys in the same way. manipulative. lying. crocodile tears for mom when they're secretly kicking the crap out of someone under the table. give me kicking and punching any day.
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its the reverse with the boys in my son's pre-K class, for whatever reason. some of them (including my son) have formed a clique. they take turns excluding one another and the other kids. they are always going on about who is and isn't invited to their birthday parties (in reality, every kid in the class is invited to every party). i think all of us parents are at a loss. we keep making playdates with kids outside the group, lecturing them about how awful it is to leave other people out... really weird stuff, and not something i expected! i can't figure out how it started, my son was new to the school this year and had never acted like this before!
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I also found with boys, that the social manipulation dies a quick death when the 'uncool" kid is suddenly playing a cool game or something. boys just don't have the loyalty, patience, or attention-span for this type of thing. Suddenly everyone is ignoring the commands of the "decider" and playing with whoever is playing a fun game.
[ Reply | Options ]yup. ds got the "you're not my friend" crap from this cruel little sh&tbag whom he adores and always thought was his bff.
[ Reply | Options ]do you hear your language and rage? sheesh. I would worry more about you and your influence than your ds's bff.
[ Reply | Options ]np Please. It's UB. Doubt she's saying this to the cruel little shitbag. My dd had two girls in class last year who are bffs with each other and say to my dd "don't talk to us". When one's absent, the other is buddy-buddy with dd. I'll call them little bitches here, but would never say anything to them (obviously).
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true. can't get over the viciousness of these women who readily judge dcs as "shitbags." kind of gross, and hard to believe they aren't adding to their dcs' troubles.
[ Reply | Options ]Said the mommy of a "misunderstood" mean kid. Oh, and you're saying "true" to someone who's disagreeing with you, Church Lady.
[ Reply | Options ]said true to the idea that I don't get the acceptance of the UB vernacular. I also don't care for people who accuse others of having a bad kid whenever a poster disagrees or takes exception to these childish, vicious posters. maybe you are the shitbag around here?
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ita. I's funny--we all remember this stuff from being little but as miserable as it can be when it's happening to you, it's ten times more painful when you're watching it happen to your dc. We've been pretty lucky, but on the few occasions that mean girls have crossed our path, I've wanted to strangle the little beasts.
[ Reply | Options ]np; how does anyone grow up anymore? seriously with parents who are this involved, hurt and ready to strangle?
[ Reply | Options ]oy vey--did I say I actually strangled anyone? Or interfered in any way? Still, I'll say it again--it hurts more to see your dc hurt than to be hurt yourself. Sorry if that sounds all sappy and overprotective to you...
[ Reply | Options ]of course it does. but luckily we are adults who have the benefit of many years of experience and hurts to help guide us in helping our dcs learn to cope with the problems of childhood. some of these posters sound ike they have not developed yet themselves and so are unable to have any perspective at all.
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look, my dcs have suffered this sort of behavior over the years time and time again. it is painful and certainly hard to watch them suffer. but they do learn how to cope and socialize and go on to do fine. it is as if some of you have not grown up.
[ Reply | Options ]I agree with you but it is hard--again, my experiences personally and with dc were pretty mild but I have seen and heard some very bad stuff. All kids have to learn to deal with fickle friends and the playground power games, but some kids really suffer and it's very difficult for parents to know whether or how to intervene.
[ Reply | Options ]but sometimes, the parents are extremely sensitive and overly affected to the extent that they are getting in the way of their dc learning to cope. all dcs experience fickle friends and playground power games just like all adults have experienced or witnessed politics at work or hurt feelings from friends. parents need to help their kids be strong, not fall apart because someone doesn't want to be friends with their dc on a given day or week. kids take their parents direction on this stuff.
[ Reply | Options ]I suspect those people did not have strong confident parents who helped them process this stuff. The parents' job in these situations is to help the dc shrug it off and move on. If the parent is filled with rage hating the dcs and worrying that their dc will not make it out of childhood without severe scarring, how do you think the kid is supposed to learn to cope? many of these posters need to stop with the UB hysteria and just work to make their kids well adjusted and not overly fragile.
[ Reply | Options ]yes, and you should work on getting over your traumatic experience so that you do not project your feelings onto your dc. most posters here are talking about fickle friends and playground politics among k-1st kids. this is typical behavior that is the normal trajectory that dcs pass along on the way to becoming well adjusted adults who know their place in the world.
[ Reply | Options ]np: while I agree with what you say, I am a little wary of your complacency. What starts in K, gets worse in middle school. The attitude, "it's part of growing up," is one approach, but more recently schools have spent thousands of dollars on bullying prevention. And the complacent attitude is part of the problem.
[ Reply | Options ]I am not complacent, nor was I with my dcs. that doesn't change the fact that there are healthy ways to deal with what is typical behavior for kids of this age for all kinds of developmentally important reasons. you need to teach your dcs why doing certain things can be helpful, and you need to help them like other kids and get along with them, even when they are sometimes left out or not liked from time to time. they have to be part of society, and rather than become crazy angry and fearful over this stuff, teach them to have perspective and to cope. your problem sounds different. MS bullying can be very dangerous. young dcs do mean things but it is not the same thing, and it is developmentally the norm. kids are little social beasts who need to be taught, and hopefully by secure competent adults who don't want to kill every kid who is temporarily mean to their dcs. if not it will be a long long haul to adulthood for you and your dc.
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My dd seems like a shy little flower, the first kid you would think would be destroyed by "you're not my friend". It happened to her in preschool -- from her "best friend", of all people -- and believe it or not, she withstood it. Give your dd confidence, let them know they are wonderful and important and special, and they will find the strength and sense of self to process this kind of treatment and move through it.
[ Reply | Options ]I am very worried, because dd starts ss this fall. She always played better with the boys, but ss was the best we got into. So we won't have boys to offset the situation. Do you think ss are worse for mean girl problems?
[ Reply | Options ]I'm afraid so. I have seen and heard too many situations from friends. However, schools like CSH, MM, Hewitt, NBS and Chapin do a little better job than Brearley and Spence. Not sure why and how but they intervene a bit more and B and S seem to be more non-interventionist in philosophy.
[ Reply | Options ]np I can state that that's a patently false statement with regard to Spence. The guidance counselor is very involved and any Mean Girl situations are dealt with very well.
[ Reply | Options ]Spence mom friends complain all the time about mean girl stuff. I don't know maybe the school is proactive but mean girl stuff comes up a lot?
[ Reply | Options ]There are mean girls EVERYWHERE. But Emma Rhode, the guidance counselor at Spence's lower school, is very proactive. If there's a problem between kids, she'll have them come down to her office to discuss it--without beating up on the meanie(s) (which doesn't really do much good).
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I heart the opposite: that Hewitt has very mean girls, and NBS has bullying issues in the lower school.
[ Reply | Options ](sigh) it's all related. Insecurity leads to bullying. Insecurity also leads to competitiveness, which leads to top schools. It's no coincidence that this behavior might be worse at a competitive school.
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I don't consider pre-k and k aged poor social behavior to be 'mean'. If you're talking older, yes. btw the clique-ing stuff started in my kid's 3's-4's class; it's fairly common developmental behavior. It's a great platform for teaching consideration and discussing feelings.
[ Reply | Options ]I view cliquey behavior in kids the same way I view biting, hitting, and refusing to share... perfectly normal behaviors that crop up during development, that must be discouraged firmly by parents and schools, again and again, until the lesson sinks in. Unfortunately many parents don't see this behavior as a problem in their young children, so they don't work on nipping it in the bud. Simply waiting for kids to grow out of it doesn't work very well... some do but many don't.
[ Reply | Options ]most people do discourage any and all of the behaviors you cite, including cliquey behavior. that you think otherwise is a bias that probably comes from your own bad experience. cliquey behavior is a much more advanced complex behavior than biting and hitting (not all kids do this, nor is it as common as the social cliquishness), and must be dealt with on a different level...like the poster above said "It's a great platform for teaching consideration and discussing feelings"
[ Reply | Options ]Okay, I would agree that most people see cliquey behavior etc as bad, but I do see a number of families who believe in letting kids "work it out by themselves", though they would step in if they saw a fistfight. These are not what I see to be an _effective_ strategy of discouraging poor behavior, but I will argue that it is a common strategy that is
[ Reply | Options ]^^whoops-- a common strategy that contributes to the continuation of cliques as children get older. From what I see in preschoolers, it starts out at least, with a combination of the same feelings that lead young children to hit and hoard: they don't want to share the attention of a special friend or group, they feel good to have control, they enjoy the reactions that they get, they express anger and the wish to hurt, they're imitating a behavior they have seen or experienced, etc.
[ Reply | Options ]^^another interesting thing I've seen in preschoolers is that they use cliques as a punishment. Forbidden to hit another child who has annoyed or hurt them in some way, but lacking the social skill to negotiate a better behavior from the other child, they often say "I'm not your friend anymore" or "You can't play with us" and are gratified by the results.
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Hey, that's a great answer that totally accurately sums up the situation. You crystallized the whole discussion in a nutshell! Yes, it's developmentally normal behavior, but still behavior that they have to be taught is not OK. Sadly, it seems like some people on this board think nobody needs to teach them that.
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Mean girls come from mean mommies... Nice mommies teach their daughters better social skills and mean mommies crow about how strong and assertive (and b*tchy) their daughters are. The apple never falls far from the tree.
[ Reply | Options ]This is not true at all unfortunately. Half the time maybe, but there is a total meanie in my dc's grade and her mom is one of the nicest people I know. Totally different personalities.
[ Reply | Options ]I stand corrected about one time of uber-nice mom that breeds a meanie; it's because they are so nice and NEVER set limits always negotiating so as not to hurt the child's feelings (what is it you WANT for dinner then, honey?) and the child keeps acting out on an escalating basis because no one ever says NO to her and the poor child is seeking boundaries. My next door neighbor was like this and solved every conflict at home by districting the child with baking cookies. Consequently, the child was mean and had tantrums everywhere until someone gave her sweets (adult or child.) What a brat.
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DD just finished Brearley K. I can honestly say not one mean girl in the class. Perhaps a few instances of bad manners but that is it. I would know because DD is super sensitive and it would be an issue. Brearley goes out of their way to break up cliques and separate best friends. Their Respect and Responsibility class was very good this year addressing these type of issues. DD came home and said she had 17 best friends the first week of school. The mean girl-clique issues were much worse in preschool.
[ Reply | Options ]We had the same experience at another SS and also found the mean girls a much bigger problem in pre-K.
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Sorry to be petty, but dd starts nbs this fall. Anyone can share "mean girl" experience there, and how the school handles the issue? TIA.
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Hmm, that is not the experience of other B moms. Mean girls at Brearley just the same.
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