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i am saddened by the outrage here that is being shown toward these moms who selectively reduce. i have two friends who needed to do this (one who went from 3-2 and one who went from 3-1) and in both cases they told almost no one for fear of this kind of reaction. are we really trying to be this unsupportive to families going through this type of hardship?
64 replies [ Reply | Watch | Options ]Apparently, OP, the answer to your question is "yes, people really are trying to be this unsupportive".
[ Reply | Options ]I am the first OR> I don't know what previous posts that the OP is referring to. She brought up the topic, I responded with my opinion. I have not gone out of my way to flame anyone.
[ Reply | Options ]Perhaps people are trying to be this unsupportive to discourage the behavior. Most people who terminate pregnancies for any reason do not discuss it openly for the same fear. Someone on UB just decided to screw discretion and broadcast that she'd done it. Why would you be surprised that she'd get such a reaction. It's no different than advertising that I put my dog to sleep b/c my new boyfriend of 3 weeks doesn't like dogs. If you do something that many people find morally reprehensible, don't advertise it in a public forum.
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I think it depends on the case. Reducing triplets is different than twins. The risk w/ triplets is much higher and may make sense medically. Way less with twins. If one wanted only a singleton, they could have implanted only one embryo. Then there are cases when of the the fetus is doing poorly and reducing is the only way to save the pregnancy; these are completely different cases, of course.
[ Reply | Options ]OP-so i'll get specifics, because i HOPE it helps, perhaps, engender some compassion. in one case, it wasnt ivf, so there was no implantation decision, and triplets had real health concerns to think about (children born as early as triplets often are have real issues). can any of us really say that we know for sure what we would have done? friend truly agonized but felt that she was helping the other two babies live the best life they could. how can you not support someone going through this. is your life so perfect that you are willing to throw stones?
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I'm supportive of a woman's right to choose. I also cannot speak to whether at twin pregnancy is dangerous or not for another woman. The fact that people think carrying and caring for twins is so simple saddens me also. I've seen all kinds of heartbreak associated with a twin pregnancy from a nurses point of view. I agree it's best not to disclose a reduction of a multiple pregnancy whether from ART or spontaneous. No good will come of it. Keep it between you, your partner, and your caregiver.
[ Reply | Options ]OP-it just makes me sad. these women are grieving as they make these decisions. and people, even close friends in nyc, cant be human enough to be there for them.
[ Reply | Options ]to OP - I posted below. I was shocked at the reactions i received from close friends and family. actually, initially, people couldn't believe I was NOT going to reduce (had a high risk twin pregnancy and no one thought i should take the risk). Then, something went very wrong with one twin and then people couldn't believe we were actually considering termination. listen to the OR. imho, it is best to just keep these things to yourself and then make the decision and just explain the loss as natural instead of disclosing. it just avoids the entire discussion.
[ Reply | Options ]Oh my goodness. Same thing happened to my cousin. Very high risk twin pregnancy everyone told her to reduce she did not. She ended up in a coma both babies died and these people actually called her selfish. With abortion or reduction women can't win either way so keep your decision to yourself.
[ Reply | Options ]It seems people's morality is based on of "only ifs". Only if the woman was raped, only if the mother's life is danger, only if she's carrying 4 or more, only if the girl was sexually abused by a relative. One thing I respect of the right to lifers is that they say abortion is wrong no matter what. It's the pro-choice people who don't have the courage of their convictions. I'm not dancing in the streets when a woman gets an abortion, but I will support her right to choose, and won't ask her to base her decision on my moral compass or anyone else's.
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i disagree - the woman in the original termination post didn't sound at all grieving to me; she stated she assumed the cvs was normal for both and just wanted to know how they go about chosing which one to "off"; in the second post the woman simply said she didn't want twins so she "offed" one of the babies. No grief, I assure you. Coldhearted is an understatement for what both of these women did. Evil is another word that comes to mind.
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NP. i am sick reading this post. Listen all of you know it all right to lifers, you have no idea what you would do until you walk in their shoes. You think you do, but you don't. I, like so many of you, thought i could never and would never. until i had to actually face the decision. you just don't know no matter how much you think you do. you need to just get over yourselves. people make these decisions for a variety of reasons and sometimes, believe it or not, it is actually more selfish to keep the child and subject it and your family to a life of misery than to terminate. not always, but sometimes and you just don't know all the facts.
[ Reply | Options ]It's very different to be told that you and your babies are medically at risk if you do not do this. However the OP who was asking how they chose which twin to die, and OR who has already killed the twin made it quite apparent that they just didn't want twins. It is horrific and unfathomable to me to kill the brother or sister of a baby was meant to have life just because the parents don't want twins. They should not reproduce at all if they do not want twins.
[ Reply | Options ]I'm sorry, but i respectfully disagree. although twin pregnancies are generally routine, many are not and you just can't predict that early on how it will be. one or both babies could end up in danger and so can the mother. there are risks to ALL twin pregnancies and anyone who tells you different knows nothing about twin pregnancies. twins can also place a severe financial and emotional hardship on a family as can a pregnancy. what if there are other children involved. i was on bed rest my entire pregnancy, my toddler suffered immensely. its not for everyone and people should be free to do what is right for their family. that is why we live in a country that gives us the right to choose.
[ Reply | Options ]No one has any promises how any given pregnancy will evolve, but to kill one of the twins just because they didn't want twins, as both of the posters did, is evil on so many levels. How can any normal feeling person make a choice to kill their baby when the dr. hasn't deemed it necessary? It's like, ok, I don't want two, one gets the axe.
[ Reply | Options ]Well women do it. That's a fact. Women axe as you say completely healthy embryos and fetuses all the time because the don't want it, they can't afford them, they are too much work, lots of reasons.
[ Reply | Options ]abortion is very different. i am pro-choice but when a woman is alredy 10-12 weeks pregnant, knows she has a healthy cvs, and is financially stable and no medical reason to not carry twins, how can anyone with human feelings kill off the brother or sister that was meant to be for the one chosen to live? Twins are so lucky; all the ones I have known have such close relationships - how can you literally kill that prospect?
[ Reply | Options ]When did the poster say she was financially stable? That particular poster actually gave out very few details. Everyone assumed she was healthy. And women have abortions at 10 to 12 weeks.
[ Reply | Options ]well she got pregnant, right, and said it was natural so we can assume it was planned. and she never mentioned finances, just that she wanted to know how to chose which one to kill. and later she casually mentioned that she assumes both are healthy. this is not an abortion, this is choosing one of her babies to die just because she doesn't want twins. and she's also choosing for the live baby not to have the brother or sister they were meant to have. her question was, how do they know which baby to axe essentially.
[ Reply | Options ]You seem to want answers no one can give you. To me this woman got pregnant and found out she was having twins and it is not something she was prepared for or expected and now she must make a difficult decision. I don't know anyone who is "prepared for twins" unless they had ART. Spontaneous twins are a surprise. And for most people it's a pleasant one and for others it's not and I can understand why a woman or couple would not want twins.
[ Reply | Options ]yes, i can too, but does that justify chosing one over the other to live and die? if they're twins, they were meant to be twins. it's not a medical necessity, it's just ok i didn't plan on twins so, line up babes, one of you is off the island.
[ Reply | Options ]If that's how you feel so be it. I feel differently. I see reduction just like I see any other abortion. I'd support her right to abort both babies if she wanted to. I know abortion or reduction is not a joyous occasion. It's a painful difficult decision and one a woman will have to live with forever. I cast no moral judgements except only for myself.
[ Reply | Options ]neither woman seemed pained by it; there was a feeling of convenience more than anything else, but definitely not pained. it's just unfathomable to me that a woman can knowingly, without medical reason, kill one baby. it is not an abortion; it is a choice to let one live and one die. can you imagine how the one chosen would feel if they found out what their mother had done and that the twin they should have had was deliberately killed by her. the guilt and sadness would be overwhelming, i would think. therapy forever, possible suicide down the road; how could anyone live up to expectations knowing they were the one chosen to live?
[ Reply | Options ]You seem hung up on the fact that they were not pained. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I highly doubt the surviving twin will find out and if he or she does then the mom and the child will deal with it. I can't see into the future so I'm not going to assume far fetched.
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I tried yesterday to reason with the women on the board, but it didn't seem to make any difference. Everyone wanted to assume that the women were doing it out of cosmetic convenience and felt no pain. What makes a woman assume that another woman 'feels no pain' in making a very painful decision? I have no idea. Neither post said, I feel no pain, I am over joyed to be doing this. Agreed neither discussed the emotional aspect of the decision, but the assumption by the sanctimonious posters was that they were somehow evil because they spoke about it clinically.
[ Reply | Options ]Both woman were objective; lacking any emotion; just wanted to kill of one over the other. For no dr. rec'd reason, just that they didn't want two. They could have been describing throwing one fish back in the water as they didn't want to take two home. Creepy. You are pregnant with twins; they are meant to have each other; killing one is wrong.
[ Reply | Options ]Clearly you have decided to believe this because I read the same posts on both threads and never felt that the women were lacking in emotion and making decision based on convenience. True they didn't discuss their emotions and heartbreaks, but that was not relevant for the decision of which child to terminate. While anyone with any experience in this will conclude there was a lot of thought and pain assoc with the decision to terminate and advice accordingly, you insist on saying they were lacking in emotion and just wanted to kill one over the other. I can't believe women like you exist! It truly is sad. BTW, neither mentioned their REASON to terminate.
[ Reply | Options ]yes they did; esp. OR, she said she didn't want twins, so one baby gets it's head chopped off, so to speak. OP said she didn't want twins so how do they chose which one to kill?
[ Reply | Options ]np - They didn't say why they didn't want twins. I'm surprised you think it's for anything other than need based reasons. I've never been in this situation and even I can see an older couple with a twin pregnancy will want to reduce so that they have at least one healthy child. Why wouldn't they reduce if they didn't want twins? It's the responsible thing to do.
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^ Sorry, and I also am the poster who lost a twin pg at 27. I was healthy, the DBs were healthy right upto 21wks when they were born prematurely. So when I say ALL twin pgs are VERY risky for both DB and you are playing with the lives of both DB and their health as well when you decide to carry multiples to term, I mean that is the medical consideration the women probably had at the back of their minds. Most posters kept saying 'but they didn't have any medical reason to reduce. Evil women just didn't want twins'. Hello! You don't want twins because there are very serious medical reasons to reduce and ANYONE who carries twins knows that and is told that. I almost feel that the judgmental women on this thread have already decided to believe reduction is motivated by evil reasons despite the arguments otherwise.
[ Reply | Options ]You have a strong history of medical rationale; it's different from deciding at say 10 weeks that you just don't want two and to end one's life.
[ Reply | Options ]Ah seriously this is what I am talking about. Have you carried twins to term. You'll have a conversation with you rob around 8wks and they will lay out for you the statistical odds. No one just WANTS to kill their kids for the joy of being able to talk about it. They make a decision to give one better odds than the other. I don't understand why this is so hard for you to see. My Dr fully encouraged me to think about it and everyday I wish I had so that I would at least have 1 child from that pg!
[ Reply | Options ]that's your case, but the OP was told anything by her dr. and it was already post cvs. she was coming to ub to find out how the choice is made for one to die. And the second poster just came out and said she didn't want twins, so one gets voted off the island. why be parents at all when you can do something like this with no medical necessity?
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and in answer to your ? about do i have twins - no - but i would have absolutely loved having twins, either with my first dc or second. and unless the dr. told me there was a medical necessity, i would never ever consider what these (for lack of better words) feelingless persons have done.
[ Reply | Options ]NP. you are biased by your own jealousy of having wanted twins and not having them. as pp said, twins are a high risk pregnancy and to pp i am so sorry for your loss. I lost one of my twins also late in the pregancy and almost lost the other as a result. the risks ARE given to you early on. unlike you, i read those posts and did not read them the same way. I do see pain. she is trying to understand how if both are healthy, the dr or they will choose. there are many reasons why they may be reducing and i sincerely doubt anyone is doing it for convenience.
[ Reply | Options ]i respectfully disagree with you. my perception is that both simply didn't want two babies and i have read their posts. and unless a dr. sits you down and says this is a strong route to consider, i could not fathom ending the life of what was meant to be a twin of the baby who gets "picked". as one poster said, how could you possibly celebrate the birth under the circumstances that you made the decision to kill his or her twin, for no medical necessity? there are no assurances with any pregnancy, but unless a dr. says otherwise, twins should be twins. all of the twins i know are so close; it is a special relationship - how can a mother suck the life out of one of them is beyond me?
[ Reply | Options ]and now closing this post. clearly you have already made up your mind. You understand nothing. while there are no assurances with any pregnancies, like it or not, twins add many complications and it is NOT the same as a singleton pregnancy. No matter how bad you wanted twins you have no right to sit in judgement of someone who does not. There but for the grace of g-d go you and as I said in an earlier post, you have no idea what you will do until you yourself are faced with the decision. you may think you know, but you don't. just keep that in mind and be careful what you wish for because you just might get it.
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it is very annoying that people assume twin and pregnant pregnancies are safe because you see so many multiples in the city. You are a great friend to support your girlfriends who reduced. I had/chose to have a reduction, and I was lucky in a way because I did not have have to pick & choose, but I can't imagine the pain of going through something like this
[ Reply | Options ]yes, i am that unsupportive and judgemental. from what i understand, there are some reasons why this would sometimes be necessary (or at least more necessary than frivolous) but it's not something i sympathize. i usually try to keep quiet about it when someone posts but i don't think it's right. same with the abortion poster. i was so tempted to flame her but there's not really a point.
[ Reply | Options ]I am one of those women. I reduced 4 to 2, and ultimately ended up having only a singleton. A part of me always mourns those babies that I lost. However, there was no way I could safely carry quads to term. I would likely lose all of them, not to mention risks to my own health. Flame away.
[ Reply | Options ]there's nothing to flame; you had a clear dr. rec'd procedure. what i find unfathomable is when someone learns they are having twins and gets rid of one just because they don't want twins. there were two "mothers" on in recent weeks with that situation and one wanted to know how the dr. chose which one to abort. to me that's someone who shouldn't be a parent. you are not at all in this category.
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