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WOHM confession: It amazes me that so many brilliant women with MBAs, JD's, etc. quit completely to stay home with their kids... I think it makes it harder on those who stay because bosses think we too will quit.
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np: This is the attitude that keeps things so hostile toward women in the workplace. If more women decided to stay in, together they could collectively change things for the better. I'm a biglaw attorney and in my 8 or so years, almost every woman I started with is gone, for these reasons, primarily. If more women stayed in, and put on more pressure for a lattice-structure rathter than ladder-structure partnership model, women could have the same footing as men, and still be able to go for partner but on a longer, less direct timeframe. You wouldn't see the droves of women having to leave because they can't do both (though you would still see those leaving who don't WANT to do both).
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I think the problem is with the bosses' attitudes, not with professional women who decide to stay home.
[ Reply | Options ]np: Those bosses are often women too. And honestly I have not seen that much attitude about it.
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ITTA. I think staying home with the kids is great if the mom is cut out for it-and I don't think having an MBA/JD/Ph.D/high-powered career and being capable of caring for small children well are mutually exclusive. It is regrettable that the choice to stay home makes it harder on those who stay. By the same token, I think it is regrettable that those who stay don't always work harder to make it easier for parents to care for their small children.
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Thank you for that. I sahm (wahm p/t, but very little, and very lucky to have the opportunity to do so w/ a good consulting gig). I love being w/ my kids, but it is definitely enervating in a way that wohm is not. On the rare days I have wohm, I have much more energy! Luckily, my dh says the same thing.
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What better way to apply the education than in raising a human being? All of the knowledge gets passed on...
[ Reply | Options ]I read recently that 75% of female Harvard MBA are either not working at all or only part-time 10 years after getting the degree. I thought that was pretty high number. But then again, most of them likely have partners who make loads of money so making more is not a big consideration.
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Me too. I think its gross that women are just abandoning their careers and education. Signed - mom with a very mediocre education and career path
[ Reply | Options ]Why? I think it's near impossible to have two partners both doing a high profile career with 80 hour work week while raising children. One of them should scale back. It can be the guy of course but for majority of couples it is still the woman. Bearing children may well have something to do with it too.
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i wah and sometimes agonize abt not being out there in the 'real' working world. dh tells me to put it into perspective this way: he has 1 life, he doesn't want to spend all of it stressing and striving. if he can help me avoid this, he's happy to. his aim is to make as much $$ as quickly as possible until he feels comfortable we can coast comfortably, then he's going to quit the grind and experience the world with his family.
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I agree to a certain point - the mommy track does exist (and I am on it...having 2 children and taking 6mo leave each time.) I am hoping now to start to be taken seriously and hope for a promotion soon. However I would certainly encourage my DD to get as much advanced degrees and experience as possible. If she decides she wants to stay home - fine but then she may have more options later. My sister has been out of the workforce for 6 years and is now coming back in as a financial planner 3x week - she was hired b/c she has strong education, columbia MBA, worked at McKinsey and has good contacts. (if she did not have this pedigree I am sure it would be much more difficult to get back in.)
[ Reply | Options ]Interesting point. I went on the "Mommy Track" at my IB firm and was treated so poorly I had to switch departments - no way would they promote me after that.
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I work p/t, sah p/t and I'm not on a track. I have a career that I am well trained for and love and I also love having the flexibility to stay home half time to raise my daughter. I'm a mom and a worker, that's how I would describe myself. I'm not running on a track
[ Reply | Options ]ah...you don't understand what I mean by "mommy track" this is a term to describe when you are at a company and want to progress etc. but end up going nowhere b/c either you take time out or the company "assumes" that you will be out again due to children, or they assume you can't put in the "hours this job demands" b/c of family responsibilities. Y
[ Reply | Options ]^^your decision was exactly that - your decision which is great! For some of us the decision is made for us.
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not exactly - I couldn't "choose" to be the one in the family to have the kids. I guess I could choose not to have children but that doesn't seem fair.
[ Reply | Options ]Actually, you could chose whether you want to have kids or not. You could also chose with dh to have him stay at home or chose to both work p/t or make any number of arrangements.
[ Reply | Options ]I chose to have kids and stay in workforce (having DH stay home not an option as we need both our incomes unless we want to living in a shack (I don't live in NYC) - but despite coming back both times I have fallen behind on the promotion ladder. This is the "price" that I pay to have children but why should I? I am more of the mind of scandi countries which mandate men to take 3 mo paternity leave to try to level the playing field.
[ Reply | Options ]you really don't get it do you? If I don't get a promotion soon people (internal and externally) will assume something is wrong with me - when the only thing is that I have had 2 children and took 6mo off. yes it was a choice but now I am paying for it. Regarding the shack comment - I don't have huge dreams - we rent a small apt now and are saving to buy a small house - I don't think that is too much to ask.
[ Reply | Options ]its not that having kids makes me "wrong" its a question of resources for my family. I need to work for $$ - promotion means I have more for my family - if I don't get promotion I still have to work the same number of hours for less. Why will I not get it? b/c I am behind already and competing with men, single women and gay without children who have been able to stay in and grind ahead. It is fustrating to still have to work but watch as people who are good but not as good as me just fly ahead - its not the time I took off before but all during my preg (6 mo) that I am not "discounted" for good projects b/c I am leaving. Someone has to populate the world but why can't society/companies give us some credit and maybe a bit more flexibility. Now when I talk with HH they say ...o you are already 36 with no management experience hmmm it is starting to look bad for you. this does not seem fair.
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Yeah, ok. I worked at a place where it was thought that if a woman took a leave to have a baby, she wouldn't come back. It was a bad company culture there. But, who cares? Do what you have to do
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me, too. i'm in that awkward no-man's-land. when people ask me if i work, i tell them p/t, but it's not entirely correct. sometimes i'm working my ass off and not sleeping for 2 wks straight, sometimesi have nothing to do (freelance designer, work from home. have nanny only p/t, and it's TOUGH!) however, people can't seem to grasp this idea and just decide for themselves that i'm sah.
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I did this. Part time was not an option at my firm, and their idea of "full time" was way more time than I was willing to spend away from my dcs. I don't regret it at all. OTOH, I was a partner for 8 years, so it's not like they didn't get their moneys' worth out of me.
[ Reply | Options ]Ding ding ding. I have a "pedigree" and WOHM FT but many of my friends have DH's that make nice money and when faced with their options (having children w/o a parent for 9, 10 hours a day if they wanted a house outside the city) they felt they would rather be with their kids. I think OP is belittling motherhood. I want my DD to know it's honourable to WOHM or SAHM - I have nothing to prove to her.
[ Reply | Options ]I agree, I think OP is belittling being a mom and also feeding into the idea that having a work title is the most important thing in life.
[ Reply | Options ]ita. if you love your career and think it's worth it to be wohm, by all means, go for it. if your career is mediocre, or tormenting you (as it was in my case), i don't think it's worth it. both are honorable.
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or: that's what i'm doing. i love it now, so much more than when i was WOH. i have been freelancing from home for a long time...i don't have any ladder to climb, which sometimes makes me feel like i'm a slacker compared to my friends, but at the end of the day, i think i've been able to pack in so much more than work into my life this way.
[ Reply | Options ]I don't look at the ladder as something to envy. What are you climbing for? What's the contest?
[ Reply | Options ]ita (unless you are good at climbing the ladder.) at the end of the day, i'm going to remember my time and travels around the world w my dc more than the highest rung i climbed (and what it took to get there.)
[ Reply | Options ]I'm with you. My goal in life isn't to be rich, it's to be a good person and be of some use
[ Reply | Options ]i put it this way: i have mom friends who really can change the world and help people in their careers (doctors, etc.) i, however, just make things look pretty (graphic design) and add to unnecessary things being printed and produced in huge quantities. and i'm not a superstar at it. however, i think my skills can be put to better use helping my children see the world, and maybe raising them to become people who really will change the world.
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You're right. Bosses do worry you'll quit. It does make it harder. On the other hand, everyone has to make their own choices.
[ Reply | Options ]Fields requiring professional degrees are pretty demanding. Unless one has solid help and a supportive spouse (i.e. he shares the load of household tasks including kids), it's all exhausting. But I have to say, those moms who choose to work probably work harder than they would have before because time is shorter and they feel compelled to perform. The bosses just don't see the lessened downtime, less idle chitchat. Quiet high capacity functioning just isn't very noticeable in the workplace.
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I don't know about you but my husband doesn't do ANY housework, never takes the kids out. In fact, I have to do all the home improvement too as well as car maintenance. He does absolutely NOTHING but work, I have to do everything else. Not having a supportive spouse feels pretty exhausting to me.
[ Reply | Options ]I worked out an agreement with my dh regarding housework. Since he commutes 2 hrs each way to work in nyc traffic, I do the cooking, cleaning, and laundry. I willingly do this. He does things like repairs and car maintenance. If you feel exhausted, you can sit down and work out a better situation- you don't have to play victim if you don't want to
[ Reply | Options ]well, my dh doesn't have the technical gifts most people have so yes, i end up doing most everything because if we relied upon him it just wouldn't get done. e.g. we bought an a/c for the children's room 2 months ago, he waited until my mom came to visit last week which gave me time to install it while he "helped". oh yeah, he desparately needs a new mobile phone, destroyed 2 of my backup phones, but won't get another phone until i escort him to the store to help him select one. i still backup his computer, he can't though he's scared to death of losing his data. he's technologically handicapped which is a big problem in this day and age.
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That's my DH. He has a high profile job and while he does great deal of playing with kids on weekends, he is absolutely useless on weekdays, many days he won't make it home before bedtime. If I had similar job, kids would not see us at all during the week. And I am not even talking about travel...
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i decided to stay home bc--even though i have the pedigree--i realized i'm mediocre at what i do...i just studied completely the wrong thing, maybe even went to the wrong university, mainly bc i wanted to stay 'on-track' and excel with everyone else. that caused 1.5 decades of angst and agonizing over why i was so miserable working. dh recognized this (and i was making home life miserable for him, too). now i am an artist, doing my own thing, producing my own work, out of the corporate world...complete emotional turnaround. corporate / career track is not for everyone.
[ Reply | Options ]In the current climate, are men really more "loyal" to employers (ie, less likely to leave for greener pastures?) I doubt it. Workers expect to have mobility in their careers rather than staying w/ one employer. There are both benefits and downsides to this. But I think it perpetuates sexism to say that women who leave to SAH are making things harder for you. What about men who leave? It doesn't make sense to blame women...
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NP: I agree with OP's general surprise about the number of moms who walk away from professional careers (don't agree with bosses comment). I have been surprised at the number of my friends who have chosen to give up professional careers and SAH 100%
[ Reply | Options ]I have a PHD and work full time--never thought I would want to SAH but now i have a delightful 14 month old and feel terrible about not spending more time with him--I have managed to take fridays off so have a full three day weekend with him but it still doesn't feel like enough. I also enjoy my job. I want to know, those who work part time--what do you do? Do you make enough to pay for child care while you work? How do you find these set-ups?
[ Reply | Options ]I work p/t- I'm a museum worker, which does not pay well but is enough to cover p/t daycare & still contribute something to the household. I put in years of unpaid internships & took out loans to get a graduate degree (which I will finish paying off at 65!). But, still, I'm doing what I love and get to have some flexibility.
[ Reply | Options ]funny because my degree is in art history! also still paying off loans. Do you work as a docent?
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I have a part time curatorial job. It's a rarity, that's for sure! And I can become full time whenever I want.
[ Reply | Options ]wow, you are so lucky. Your situation seems ideal to me. I am thinking of having a 2nd dc and simply can't imagine working the way I did when I had my first. I am a university professor and this is the dream job I worked towards for years, but it is so hard to balance all of this.
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np: here's another consideration - even if working PT is a break-even proposition (just covers childcare and costs of working) there's still the tenure in your field, the benefits, the retirement savings, the raises and the fact that if when your children are older - even 12-15 years from now you are ready to go back FT, you are in a much better senior position. And childcare costs are big ONLY in the early years.
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What shocked me more is that there were women in my MBA who acknowledged that their goal in life was to be a SAHM. Now, I have nothing against SAH, and I know that things don't always work at as planned in life, but why or why spend $100K+ on a education you most likely won't use? Sure, there are people who say that an education is never wasted, but an MBA is really not all that helpful if you plan on doing nothing with it. Read a good personal finance book and call it a day.
[ Reply | Options ]You use the education in raising your child- as the mom, you're a teacher. Or maybe you use the professional training when the child is a certain age and you plan to go back into the workforce.
[ Reply | Options ]Well, maybe the latter but an MBA, sorry to say, does not help you be a better teacher or mom. Most of these women already have more than enough education (and given that this is a top program, from good schools). It really is just a waste of money. These MBA programs charge top dollar and you give up two year of salary that could be saved (and again, most come into the program from well paying jobs so the opportunity cost is more like $250K+).
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I hate to say this, but are those MBAS using the time to meet a husband with earning potential?
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i spent $100k+ on a JD that i haven't used (yet) and am somewhat regretting it. but kids eventually grow up, and you never know what can happen in life down the road. and it's certainly better to get your degrees while you're young/single. i had ds#1 5 months prior to taking the ny bar, and that was absolutely the hardest time of my life (thus far).
[ Reply | Options ]I have an MBA from Kellogg and I always knew I would stay home (and probably never return to work full time) once I had kids. In fact, the first time I applied to B-School (w/ only a year under my belt), I got waitlisted at Stanford GSB and the feedback was they were worried about my commitment to a long term career based on some long term goals I talked about in my essays. I ended up getting in to Kellogg and Stanford, started at 24, graduated at 26 and worked for 3+ years until I had my first kid. I cycle back and forth b/t part time contracting and full time SAHM. My DH is a software entrepreneur (former BCG consultant, PhD) and my contacts and my ability to help him when he's raising VC $$ have been super valuable.
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I think that priorities just change when you have kids. I went back full time after DC 1 but the time has not been satisfying. I feel like I am giving up a lot (I spend 1-2 hrs a day with DD, at best) for something that is not very rewarding. Luckily, DH makes more than enough for us to live on. He just doesn't want me to waste my MBA and potential on being a SAHM (no flames please, I was home for a year after DC 1 and I was truly starting to lose myself). Now I am expecting DC 2 but I will not be going back to my job. There's no point in getting another job since I will still be a slave to it if I want to achieve anything I will be satisfied with. We've saved a lot and have decided that the best plan for us once I am ready is to start my own business or work for myself. That way, I can start off slow when the DCs are little and really dedicate myself to it once they are in school.
[ Reply | Options ]I agree. There is no way for us to make the working environment more kid-friendly and parent-friendly and equal for women if there's no one left to stay in there and push for changes.
[ Reply | Options ]I went to a crappy suny school and barely graduated. I marvel at all these women who went to great schools and then went on for MBA's, JD's, MD, etc. I enjoy working and make quite a bit of money in sales. I never understand how after working so hard to get these degrees, you just give it up. In a million years, I could not have done these degrees, I didn't have the smarts, nor the money to pay for it. I always marvel at how they can give it up. To each her own, but I am still perplexed.
[ Reply | Options ]BS- There is no way to lay the blame for attitudes toward and difficulties in the workplace, on the choices of some women, to full-time parent. There are many brilliant women-w/or w/out advanced degrees, whom make this choice. There is an equal , if not greater number of candidates available for consideration. Many of the brilliant women leaving, have done so and nurtured their kids as the well-rounded, hardworking next generation of minds, bodies and spirits whom will join the collective adult workforce.
[ Reply | Options ]I have a Ph.D. I had a one-year postdoc after I filed, and then I stayed home with dc for 4 years. I published 2 articles in that time to keep myself current and marketable. I am now back full-time as a professor. I probably didn't have as many opportunities and interviews as I would have had on the job market if I had not had the gap in employment. But I only needed one job, and I got it. After I was hired the department chair told me that he and the other committee members had guessed that the gap in employment was due to having children. I guess what I want to say is that wohm/sahm is not some permanent life choice, and it is perfectly possible to choose one and then the other, if you remain flexible and think about future goals. I was willing to change careers if I had to, because staying home for a few years was what I wanted. Have I reduced my lifetime earning potential? Yes, because I started four years later than I could have. But in academia, it's not such a big difference : )
[ Reply | Options ]I understand why people have trouble understanding this. I have had so many people question why I would be a sahm after a jd. Really, every person has a different personal reason. For me, I worked nearly full time through college to put myself through. I never got to choose the classes I wanted but had to take what was available around my work schedule. The stress was awful, mother died-father an alcoholic. Law school on the other hand was an amazing experience. I loved the classes and had the luxury to study without working to support myself. I chose a public school to lessen my expenses and worked 5 yrs after-long hours and low pay as a prosecutor. LOVED IT. My ds was born and I fully intended to continue working and did so for one year. I would see him for one hour at night and 15 min in the morning. DH and I were very fortunate in the stock market. Work was not about $ but something I loved doing. But I missed my son more. PT was not an option in this office. Been home 10 years now. Will never regret for one minute the blessing to have this choice. The flip side of the above argument is that I made room for one person who perhaps really needed a job. I went to law school (top 20) with full intent to work. Life changes and we adapt based on our personal needs. My dc are both in school now. Life is again changing and time to adapt again. Going back to work...
[ Reply | Options ]... looking at it from the company's perspective, the purpose of the company is to either generate revenue (corporation) or to provide a service (government). In my line of work (government) 87% of our budget pays for staffing and benefits. When a company spends thousands of dollars to train thier employees, thousands of dollars in benefits, and thousands of dollars to pay thier employees it becomes a serious financial inconvience when said employee can be out of work for 6+ months and then may or may not return to work after that. It has nothing to do with management being heartless or chauvanistic its the financial reality of the situation. You do what you feel is best for you and your family, but you have to understand that on the same token the company has to do whats best for the company. In my current job, 3 of my co-workers are pregnant at the moment and are unable to physically do 90% of our assigned tasks. Now I'm not saying they should think of thier co-workers before they make a family decision like that but it really does make everyone elses job that much harder. No one should be angry when you do whats best for your family, but you have to understand that the company has to do whats financially best for the company also.
[ Reply | Options ]If they have these degrees then chances are they are smarter than the average bear. Thus they know that their child's well-being and future mental health has increased chances if they (the smarter, more invested caretaker) will take care of their children. It's an evolutionary decision for the well being of her progeny.
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